Abortion

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Are you against abortion?

yes
13
46%
no
10
36%
no, but the upper time limit for abortion should be lowered
5
18%
 
Total votes : 28

Postby Thirteen-thirty-seven » Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:49 am

Vicky, there is a pro-life charity called "Life" which seeks to promote pro-life principles by giving financial and practical help to mothers in difficulty. Theyt also provide counselling for women who have had abortions and subsequently regret it.This is much more effective, in my view, than the policies of the other pro-life charity, SPUC.
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Postby parnassus » Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:07 am

I support Life with financial donations, but I never give to the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children. They once held a protest march in my local area and blockaded the main road. Which happens to lead to a hospital. Which the ambulances obviously need to use. Luckily the police moved them.

Also, an SPUC lady sometimes came to hand out anti-abortion newsletters in our church. When she saw me and the other Catholic boarders, instantly identifiable by our school uniforms (we were not allowed to attend church in our own clothes) she handed us a big sheaf of newsletters and said dourly, "That'll make interesting reading for you schoolgirls." I dislike the assumption that Catholic schoolgirls are more likely to commit mortal sin than mature Catholic women, because I don't think that's true at all.
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Postby Thirteen-thirty-seven » Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:42 am

Another story about SPUC

They once sent models of foetuses to all the MPs in the country, hoping to encourage them to pass anti-abortion legislation. These moidels were very realistic. One of the recipients was a female MP who had just returned to work after taking time off because she had suffered her fourth miscarriage. Understandably, she found recieving the model very distressing. It's that kind of insensitivity which I dislike about them.
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Oops I meant to say yes, I am against it!

Postby Hermionefan5 » Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:42 am

:oops: I meant to say "yes" because I am AGAINST abortion at ALL COSTS!!! I used to be a little bit for it, but I did a project with my best friend on it in High School and now I am against it because we saw all those horrible pictures from the internet and books showing dead babies with their heads severed and their organs taken out! It's a horrible thing, I don't care whether people are abusing people and getting them pregnant and the girl wants the abortion because of that. There's always adoption for those kinds of things. There are so many people in this world who can't have children for medical reasons, but really want one and it's not fair that people who can have them are terminating their child's life when it could be adopted by a nice, loving family. For those wanting to abort I think that children change people's lives and that child can change your life for the better if you just give it a chance at having a life. I have read true stories of how girls have gotten pregnant on date-rape and then kept the baby and said that they love the baby so much and would never give it up! And who knows, that little baby could be the next Johnny Depp, Bill Gates, JK Rowling, Mia Hamm, MLK Jr, Rosa Parks, Lance Armstrong, etc. Would you want to give up that person's life? :( Even eggs that are just fertilized have a right to life! This is one of my very few exteremely conservative views on issues. I'm mostly a moderate as I am mildly liberal and mildly conservative...
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Re: Oops I meant to say yes, I am against it!

Postby C » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:23 pm

Hermionefan5 wrote::oops: I meant to say "yes" because I am AGAINST abortion at ALL COSTS!!! I don't care whether people are abusing people and getting them pregnant and the girl wants the abortion because of that. There's always adoption for those kinds of things. I have read true stories of how girls have gotten pregnant on date-rape and then kept the baby and said that they love the baby so much and would never give it up!


Well good for them but the majority of girls who have had the misfortune to not only be raped but also fall pregnant with the rapist's baby aren't like that!

What about a case of a thirteen-year-old girl, still a child herself, who suffered the tragedy of rape then found she was pregnant? Now surely you wouldn't blame this girl if she didn't want to keep the baby and sought an abortion? Even if she went through with the pregnancy and put the baby up for adoption, that would still put her child body that hasn't yet grown through nine months of physical agony for nothing. And adoption isn't as simple as just handing the baby over, either, there's all kind of emotions that go with it once the baby is born. And what about if, twenty years down the line, this now thirty-three year old woman, happily married with children, is tracked down by her lost child and does not want to see them. And what about the child then? Would you want to hear you were the product of your dad raping your mum?

If the mother of a baby born through rape is married, the marriage would probably disintegrate as the husband will probably not want to bring up a child that's not only not there's but is a rapists's baby. Furthermore, the mother may find herself resenting and hating the baby.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are mothers out there who have kept their rapists baby and I admire them. I'm sure their children are doing fine and, as I don't think I could go through with an abortion myself, I may well keep the baby if-heaven forbid- I was raped. It's just that it's not as simple or black and white as to say that if someone's raped they should keep the baby and just get it adopted. Rape is not like getting pregnant accidently or after a one-night-stand, rape is forced and the woman should not have to suffer any more than she already has.
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Postby parnassus » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:33 pm

Rape is a difficult case. I would be extremely sympathetic to a woman who had an abortion as a result of rape, even though I think aborting a child just compounds the tragedy.

However, a woman is unlikely to conceive as a result of rape. Conception is more likely to happen if the body is physically relaxed, oddly enough. (I read about this in biology.) So the number of girls who become pregnant through rape is very, very small. That's not to say that they don't matter. It's to say that legislators should be very careful indeed. If abortion were to be outlawed save in cases of rape and/or incest, it would create an easily exploitable loophole.
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Postby C » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:37 pm

...which is why abortion should remain legal in my opinion! If abortion was illegal, woman would have backstreet abortions like they used to and could kilkl themselves as well as their foetus.
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Postby parnassus » Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:19 pm

When I mentioned 'an easily exploitable loophole', I meant that some unscrupulous women might claim to have become pregnant through rape in order to be given an abortion. And as the likelihood of becoming pregnant through rape is so small, the watershed needs to be stronger.

My mum used to work as a midwife; she is sadly familiar with the horrible reality of backstreet abortions. But there are ways in which the number of such abortions could be stopped, even if the abortion laws were tightened. (I am not in favour of an outright ban, but I would like to see the time limit lowered - refer to my earlier post for my reasons.) I think that the authorities should channel more money into counselling, free childcare facilities, and subsidised mother's helps rather than providing still more abortion facilities. The media's victimisation of single mums should also be ended, in order to promote a more positive view of childrearing. The current problem is that pro-life campaigners are trying to establish pro-life laws in a culture that is often vicious towards single parents. The climate has to be changed before such laws would be any good. I believe that if the atmosphere were only more positive, fewer women would feel compelled to abort.
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Postby pinkparrot » Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:21 pm

If someone was raped it's not the child's fault they were born out of rape. I just said that to make a point and I am fully aware that I am way out of step. Would someone be kind enough to summarise the points of the previous arguments?
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Postby Hermionefan5 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:00 am

You have a point, Charlotte. I can't say that if I got raped and pregnant that would not make me feel bad about the baby. It is so sad to think that if my sister, who is 14 got raped, she could get pregnant and have to deal with those complications. It is hard to say if someone that age should have to deal with having a baby, I agree. Maybe abortion should only be allowed under such special circumstances as rape, but as Vicky said, many women claim to have been raped in order to get an abortion. I don't think it is right for 13 year old girls to have babies and I didn't mean for it to come out that way. I have personally never gone through any of this so I was just reflecting on my belief that babies have a say too.

I heard a story in health class of a girl who got pregnant. She was 11 years old and raped by her first cousin at a party. She got pregnant and went through the birth, but the baby and the girl were hurt badly because the baby's body was very big and the girl was only 11. The baby became handicapped and I am not sure what happened with the girl, but in that situation I think it would have maybe been better to abort the baby just because she was only 11 and it ended up hurting her. But, on the other hand, abortions have been proven to have longterm emotional effects on the woman who has them. It's almost like having a spontaneous abortion where women go through that time of greiving. I am against abortion still because I believe the baby still should get to have a life, but I do see your point. It gets a bit tricky when it comes to rape. Since I have never been in that situation, I don't know how I would deal with it. I hope I would keep the child or give it up for adoption, but I don't know. I didn't think about the rape factor very much in depth and my view has swayed a little to the middle of the road, as it usually does.

Also, I think that if I were to have a child through rape, I would never ever tell them that they were a "mistake"! To me there is no child here on earth who is not supposed to be here! All those who are supposed to be gone are gone (to heaven or wherever you believe) right now. Every person is a unique gift, even an unborn person. The part where my views are conflicting is when we have to save the mother or the baby, who are both unique gifts, which do we save? If abortion stays legal, I think there must be a line drawn because everyone who has a unexpected child can go to the abortion clinic right now and get one. I don't think that is right because babies have rights too. However, under certain circumstances, ie the story above, maybe there should be rights for abortion since the mother could really be harmed as well as the fetus....it's such a hard topic... :(
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Postby pinkparrot » Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:37 am

Everything becomes complicated because people lie. If nobody lied, then everyone in the world could count on theory.
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Postby parnassus » Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:17 pm

Wise words, pinkparrot.

Shanna, I think your views on abortion correspond to Orthodox Jewish teaching. Jews believe that the life of the mother must come first and it would be permissible (although tragic) to abort a child if the mother was in mortal danger. But if the baby has partially emerged and met the outside air, and the mother then starts to sink, it would not be allowed for the doctor to give her life preference over the child's.
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Postby Hermionefan5 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:25 pm

parnassus wrote:Wise words, pinkparrot.

Shanna, I think your views on abortion correspond to Orthodox Jewish teaching. Jews believe that the life of the mother must come first and it would be permissible (although tragic) to abort a child if the mother was in mortal danger. But if the baby has partially emerged and met the outside air, and the mother then starts to sink, it would not be allowed for the doctor to give her life preference over the child's.


Yeah, I think that the baby should be born if it is already coming out! That's just wrong when it is coming out and then a doctor kills it. It's hard to say about when the mom or baby could be in danger because it's like you choose one life over the other either way. :( Either the mom goes and has the baby and the mom dies. Or the baby and mom both die. :cry: or the baby dies and the mom lives. None of these are happy endings for either party. :cry: Kind of off subject, but has anyone seen Whale Rider or Jersey Girl? Both of these movies deal with the subject of moms and babies with birth complications. Not necessarily with abortion, but with health problems of the mother when she is giving birth. Whale Rider is also a good girl power movie and stars the very good young actress Keisha Castle-Hughes, who was nominated for an Oscar.
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Postby parnassus » Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:32 pm

I haven't seen either of those, though they sound interesting.

I'm suspicious of 'girl power'. I was reading the handbook provided by the Cambridge University Women's Union the other day, and just as I was getting enthusiastic and thinking, "Hmm, I'd love to participate in this," I turned the page and came across, "Abortion rights." The CUWU believes that abortion should be available on request. I wish that so many women's movements wouldn't include such uncompromising abortion 'rights' as part of a package deal, as I feel uncomfortable identifying myself with any campaign - even one I support, such as the equal opportunities quest - that is powered by a pro-abortion organisation. It's as if you sign up for one CUWU policy and you sign up for them all.
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Postby Hermionefan5 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:04 pm

parnassus wrote:I haven't seen either of those, though they sound interesting.

I'm suspicious of 'girl power'. I was reading the handbook provided by the Cambridge University Women's Union the other day, and just as I was getting enthusiastic and thinking, "Hmm, I'd love to participate in this," I turned the page and came across, "Abortion rights." The CUWU believes that abortion should be available on request. I wish that so many women's movements wouldn't include such uncompromising abortion 'rights' as part of a package deal, as I feel uncomfortable identifying myself with any campaign - even one I support, such as the equal opportunities quest - that is powered by a pro-abortion organisation. It's as if you sign up for one CUWU policy and you sign up for them all.


Girl power is considered by me and my family as being a good thing. I have never really heard it used as an abortion thing although I guess it is used a lot in women's rights. Let me clarify the Girl Power definition that I go by: It's like this: Sometimes girls don't feel as accepted in our (American) society because they don't get to do some things guys do. When I describe a girl power movie or show it is about girls doing something that normally guys are more accepted to do. Like for instance, in Bend It Like Beckham, the girls are playing soccer and in sports girls sometimes get the feeling they are second to guys because there are so many teams with just males. When the girls start playing soccer it gives them a chance to show that they are just as good as the guys. Maybe they can't run as fast and maybe they are not as strong, but they are doing the same thing the guys do. It's hard for me to live in a country where girls are allowed to get a higher education, go in the army and die, but they can't get equal wages to men and they can't get to have some of their sports go professional. Even if our sports do go professional, people don't watch them enough and they go under. That's what happened to the Women's Soccer league (WUSA) and it may happen to the WNBA. Girl power is when girls step up and do something that the guys and other people in the world have been preventing them from doing just because they are girls. Hope this makes sense. I posted a summary of Whale Rider and Jersey Girl which were written on imdb.com.

Image


Plot Summary for
Whale Rider (2002)
On the east coast of New Zealand, the Whangara people believe their presence there dates back a thousand years or more to a single ancestor, Paikea, who escaped death when his canoe capsized by riding to shore on the back of a whale. From then on, Whangara chiefs, always the first-born, always male, have been considered Paikea's direct descendants. Pai, an 11-year-old girl in a patriarchal New Zealand tribe, believes she is destined to be the new chief. But her grandfather Koro is bound by tradition to pick a male leader. Pai loves Koro more than anyone in the world, but she must fight him and a thousand years of tradition to fulfill her destiny.

Summary written by berkeley from IMDB.com

Image


Plot Summary for
Jersey Girl (2004)
Ollie (Ben Affleck) is a top of his game N.Y publicist. He has a perfect life with a beautiful wife and a baby on the way. Suddenly things go astray and Ollie finds himself jobless and a single father. He's forced to move in with his father played by George Carlin. Things start to look up for him when he meets another great girl (Liv Tyler) and her daughter and learns that life sometimes throws you a few different directions and you can't choose the path you're given.

Summary written by Movie Jungle - Peter Dimako
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