The ban on religious clothing/accessories in France

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Do you agree with the French ban on the wearing of religious garb in public places?

Yes, because it promotes equality
1
6%
Yes, because it will help to fight dangerous kinds of fundamentalism
0
No votes
Yes, because religion does not belong in a school setting
0
No votes
No, because it compromises people's freedom
9
50%
No, because it is discriminatory
6
33%
No, because it goes against everything that secularism stands for
2
11%
I don't know
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 18

Postby parnassus » Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:42 pm

Thirteen-thirty-seven wrote:

I thought it was only compulsory to wear a headscarf.


No. According to the Hadith (a collection of the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad):

Asma daughter of Abu Bakr came before the Prophet wearing revealing clothing. The prophet said to her, "O Asma! When a girl reaches womanhood she should show only this and this," and he pointed to his face and his hands.


The Qur'an itself (considered much more authoritative than the Hadith, as many Muslims believe that the Hadith have been corrupted over time) is more ambiguous: "Tell the believing women to draw their cloaks over their bodies when they go out, and guard their modesty." Men are given a similar injunction. But Muslim theologians could argue for hours over the correct interpretation of that verse. Some say it is compulsory to veil the face, others say that not even a headscarf is required. These are the two extreme viewpoints. The mainstream crowd go with the hadith I quoted above. The whole point of hijab is modesty. A headscarf is useless if you're wearing a tank top and skin-tight jeans.
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Postby pinkparrot » Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:10 pm

How modest can someone be? Can't everyone just interpret it their own way and leave it at that?
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Postby parnassus » Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:10 pm

Within reason, yes. But as you can see, the Qur'an imposes boundaries. There is no way on earth a Muslim girl could find justification for wearing a bikini in public just because she personally considered it modest enough.
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Postby pinkparrot » Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:17 pm

We're back to square one! What is modest enough? Either a fixed judgement or no judgement?
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Postby parnassus » Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:24 pm

Modesty in dress is a fixed judgement in Islam - and, to some extent, in my own religion (Roman Catholicism). Modesty in behaviour is where flexibility comes in. You must tailor your actions to match your dress. A girl in hijab who behaves like a common harlot is not really in hijab, even though she has the scarf on her head.
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Postby pinkparrot » Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:29 pm

Are we talking about the clothing or the whole religion? I know this topic has many links to other areas that have an effect on how to judge this area.
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Postby Black_Haired_Angel » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:40 pm

Hermionefan5 wrote:
parnassus wrote:I am a Roman Catholic too, sumer. I usually wear a crucifix or a medallion of Mary. But in France I would not be allowed to display my faith at school. This is the subject of the debate.


There is something similar to not being able to display religion here in the US. You can't bring a Bible to school.
gdness if i was in america and in my final year with free periods i wud be expeled! i ahev a habbit of haivng a bible in my bag!!
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Postby chocolatefudgecake » Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:29 pm

Hermionefan5 wrote:You can't bring a Bible to school.

weird - At our school, they GAVE OUT These little Bibles. Of course, I'm in England.
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Postby Black_Haired_Angel » Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:40 pm

same with my skl! i still have my wee bible sumwher!

i prfere the ones i get form my churhc or oens i buy for mysefl!

anyways bak to teh topic. is france attempting what hitler did by bannin religous symbols at skl? coz it soudns litk that to me!!!
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Postby chocolatefudgecake » Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:33 pm

Black_Haired_Angel wrote:anyways bak to teh topic. is france attempting what hitler did by bannin religous symbols at skl? coz it soudns litk that to me!!!


I never thorght of that. I soppose it's simmiler, but France isn't Focusing on just one religean, but all off them. and they aren't killing or forceing people out of their homes.
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Postby parnassus » Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:34 pm

Secularism is not the same as Nazism, Black_Haired_Angel. Hitler didn't ban religious symbols - he subverted their meaning. The swastika itself is a holy Hindu sign that his political party hijacked. The cross could be freely displayed, but it usually had a German eagle engraved at the base - part of Hitler's plan to reshape Christianity to match Nazi ideology. Jews in the occupied countries were forced to wear a jaundiced Magen David (Star of David) on their coats so they could be identified as unwanted aliens. Hitler was a shrewd man who understood the power of symbols, and so he used them. The French government also understands how powerful symbols can be, and understandably doesn't want that power to be abused. All the same, for the reasons outlined in my earlier messages, I think they're going the wrong way about it.
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Postby Black_Haired_Angel » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:24 pm

i dotn leik secelurism (?) at all

its wrong
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Postby fuzzy » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:31 pm

The western world is increasinly becoming a secular place; the traditional relgions are fast fading away, so really maybe this is the next logical step. I think there is nothing wrong with secularism, and NO, Im not a Nazi- Im half Jewish. If anything, it is religion that poses more of a threat in today's society than sceularisiation.
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Postby eDan » Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:23 pm

Hitler had some odd ideas about racial purity, which were on national and ethnic lines, focusing on the greatness of die Deutschen Volk and using ethnic minorities as scape goats. We've seen the likes of ethnic cleansing since then, with the former Yugoslavia being a recent example. France is *not* proposing ethnic cleansing, or anything like it, and to compare the two is a gross misunderstanding of the situation. The French government may be alienating some in its attempt to create a single secular idea of France and being French, hence recent grievances, however there is a huge gulf between that and National Socialismus of 1940s Germany, or ethnic cleansing in 1990s Bosnia. I don't believe what we're seeing in France is the thin end of the wedge and that much worse is to follow.

To take up another point, religions are often cast as a reason for conflicts. Sometimes this is the case, sometimes it is merely one facet that differentiates one group from another (and thus seen as a simple explanation), and again in other instances it is merely used as an excuse, as some unfounded basis for conflict.

One aspect of religion in modern politics which irritates and concerns me the most is the belief that governments have God on their side, especially when they're riding into battle. George W Bush is a prime perpetrator of this. The US may separate "church and state" in its constitution, but it does not separate government and religion. I am happy that British politics, albeit grounded arguably in Christian values, is largely secular at a practical level.
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Postby Thirteen-thirty-seven » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:39 am

eDan, I understand your concerns. However:

Mahatma Gandhi wrote:Those who say Religion and Politics do not mix understand neither


For a religious person, it is completely impossible to avoid mixing Religion and politics. Why? Because they both deal with ethics. If I were to become Prime Minister, I would increase taxes for the rich and provide more aid to poor countries because of my Christian convictions. I would believe that I had God on my side. Would you rather I refused to follow my conscience, on the grounds that doing so would mix Religion and politics? I agree that politicans should not force their faith on others, and should allow Religious freedom. However, good politicians do what they believ is right. Therefore, they believe that they have God on their side (unless they are atheists). I don't see anything wrong with that.

P.S I do not support the war in Iraq. I think George W Bush is an idiot. However, I think he is an extremely corageous idiot with good intentions.
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