ssy

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ssy

Postby happy_go_lucky » Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:17 pm

any other ssy members on the board or socialist/anarchists/communists/trotskyists on the board
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Postby Danni » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:06 am

I'm a member of the Socialist Worker's Party and Respect. I'm a socialist :)

I love the idea of communism but humans are too selfish for it to work out correctly.
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Postby parnassus » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:47 am

Communism looks pretty on paper. In reality it doesn't work.

I care very much about social justice and I believe in equality for all, but my definition of 'equality' isn't the same as that of the Socialist Workers' Party. While I think that everyone should be entitled to the same quality of health care and education, the same right to freedom of speech, and all the rest of it, I have other views that qualify as traditionalist. For instance, I believe that the monarchy is not past its sell-by date and that having a queen as Head of State (even as a token Head of State) does not hurt the working man.
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Postby happy_go_lucky » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:01 pm

for a start we can never be truly free until we arent catagorised as surfs which we all are under a monarchy it also means that a group of unelected spongers get a large public influence and funding all for doing nothing for the working people of the world

secoundly respect what were you thinking im not even going to go their
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Postby Hermionefan5 » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:48 pm

Sorry, but what exactly is socialism? What is the difference btwn socialism and communism? I am not a part of these b/c I live in America and believe in democracy, but I would like to know what other ways of government are. Here if you participate in communism you can get arrested and stuff. There was a guy that got fired from a college for allegedly "being a communist." He says now that it was for a project for his class that he was teaching.

I know why we don't like communism here (because of Hitler), but I don't know what the difference is btwn it and socialism? What makes socialism so much better? It's looked upon better here to be socialist, although we are not socialist.
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Postby eDan » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:32 pm

Socialism is a broad political ideology. As with many such ideologies, there are a number of branches of it. Communism is one such branch, and much of 20th century politics involved the competition between American capitalism and Russian communism as the dominant ideology in the world. Most countries of the world were forced in some form to show their allegience to one or the other.

Communism ideology, briefly, is based around a classless society, and grew favour in Russia as a reactionary movement opposed to the rule of the Tsars. Rather than 'haves' and 'have nots' as it the norm in capitalist societies, communism sought in theory to give power to the many workers (the proletariat) rather than the few wealthy employers and traders (the bourgeoisie).

Nazi Germany on the other hand was a fascist state, which was a form of authoritarian single government rule.

Back to the subject of socialism more generally; although Communism eventually failed in the Soviet mould it was given, socialism continues in a number of forms around the world. Most notably perhaps are the Social Democracies of Western Europe such as those often found in Scandinavia, where there is a emphasis on a government supporting the population through a strong welfare state. In such a system healthcare, higher education and the like are free to the individual, paid for in overall tax revenues. Certainly, the cost of living is higher in Scandinavian countries, but the standard of living is very high too, and the state provides a safety for those who might falter, providing unemployment benefit and housing where needed.

In the UK the Labour Party is the traditional political party of socialism, however as 'old socialism' became perceived as increasing discredited, it too has revised its core values to reach out to a wider popular base, and has been largely successful in doing so. Many argue that it has lost its central ideological direction in making a move for the central political ground, but to be honest the same could be said of more or less all political parties today in Britain and much of the Western world.

As for those interested in the political views of those on the board, can I suggest you look up the 'political compass' thread, which gives some indication of where you fall in the grander scheme of political ideologies.
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Postby happy_go_lucky » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:46 pm

where shall i start this may take me a while i know where ill start the soviet union was not communist i repeat that it was not communist although populist media would have you think otherwise for a start when the revolution happened lenin named his party the bolsheviks instead of communist so he didnt have to follow its ideals however the revolution took on the thoughts and ideals of communism then their was a civil war in russia everyone sees the revolution as being over and done with pretty fast but the war raged well into the twenties.

Then lenin died and trotsky was set to take over however stalin who was in charge of the militry seized power and then you get a stalinist state which is authoritarian and no where near communist and that is the way russia was set right through the cold war so russia was not communist. AS for the comments linking socialism to hitler grrr hitler was a fasicist as eDan points out and actually supported big buisness just like the states and he won a fair and free election to gain power so got into power through a perversion of democracy im not going into the weimar government here. and youll find all socialists fight fascism in fact we hate the nazi's more then anyone on earth and have fought many times aggainst fascist oppression see the spanish civil war for example whilst western democracy's stood idealy by we fought hitler. and the diffrence between communism and socialism is a man called grammsci who was a thinker and furthered on the points of the communist manifesto.

And now on to America and democracy well for a start in your 2000 elections your president clearly cheated in florida and just took power because fox declared him the winner before the count was finished later counts revealed he did not win. and as for protecting democracy well thats naff look at venezuela for a start the 2002 coup against hugo chavez was funded by non other then america because he beleives in decent wages for his people and threatened to nationalise his oil industry so you tried to kidnap and kill him luckily venezuelan citizens raised an army and stormed the building his captors where holding him in yet he won his election with over 70% of the electorate behind him. So america a pillar of democracy i think not.

maybe all this will give you something to ponder!!
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Postby parnassus » Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:02 am

Russia called itself a communist state, but did not live up to its ideal - you are right there. Vietnam also calls itself a communist state, but it certainly doesn't live up to its ideal either. China, the world's biggest 'communist' country, carries out more executions than anywhere else on the planet, is the world's biggest censor, and is infamous for use of torture. These are communist principles either. Yet the driving forces behind the communist revolutions that rocked each nation - the hope and the fire that inspired Mao and the Vietcong alike - was communism at its purest.

But it didn't work. And it will never work. People are too selfish. Every single communist government that was ever created has been hijacked by politicians with a rather different agenda from the one they are supposed to be propagating. While democracy is not a perfect system, it is indubitably the best one we have. There have been no mass genocides in democratic countries. In every so-called communist country in the world, with the possible exception of Cuba, people have been slaughtered based on their religion or political ideology. Oh, I know that's not a communist principle. But when communism goes wrong (as it inevitably does) that's what happens. I suggest you read Animal Farm.

for a start we can never be truly free until we arent catagorised as surfs which we all are under a monarchy it also means that a group of unelected spongers get a large public influence and funding all for doing nothing for the working people of the world

secoundly respect what were you thinking im not even going to go their


Tourism. Britain's tourism industry is booming - and all thanks to quaint institutions like the House of Lords and figureheads such as Her Majesty the Queen. If we were to scrap the monarchy, thousands of 'serfs' who work in the travel and tourism industry would be out of a job - and Britain would lose billions of pounds each year. And I'm talking literally billions. That money does not go to pad the queen's purse; it is fed into our economy and is vital to our survival as a nation. This is another reason why I don't favour total communism - it is built on very shaky economic principles.

As for the House of Lords (I presume the Lords are who you mean by 'unelected spongers'), that particular institution has defended the rights of the working man more times than I can count. All of us on this board should be interested to know that it was a member of the Lords who urged the government to take dyslexia seriously. He gave a very powerful speech on the subject; he genuinely cares.

he beleives in decent wages for his people and threatened to nationalise his oil industry so you tried to kidnap and kill him


Hold on a moment, happy-go-lucky. I don't think Shanna (Hermionefan5) was even old enough to vote in the last American election. She certainly wasn't working as a secret agent in Venezuela for the American government. So less of this highly personal 'you'. Debate is all well and good providing it's respectful, but please don't accuse board members of conspiring to murder people.

A note to Shanna

One of my frequent gripes is that they don't teach history properly over in the USA, and you have just proven me right! (Humour.) Communism had nothing to do with Hitler - in fact, Hitler hated communists. He was a Nazi (a fascist). Fascism and communism are meant to be opposed to one another, but in reality (i.e. when it all goes wrong) frightening similarities become apparent.

I live in America and believe in democracy, but I would like to know what other ways of government are. Here if you participate in communism you can get arrested and stuff. There was a guy that got fired from a college for allegedly "being a communist." He says now that it was for a project for his class that he was teaching.


I'm sorry, but happy_go_lucky is right here. That is not a true democracy. In a democracy, you are meant to be able to hold any political belief that you like - democracy is meant to guarantee freedom of speech and freedom of belief. Arresting people because they're communists is just wrong. So-called communist leaders have been evil, but communism itself isn't bad. It is based on the premise that all people ought to be equal. Its slogan was devised by Karl Marx: "Each man should work according to his abilities and receive according to his needs." In a perfect communist world, rich and poor wouldn't exist any more - everyone would have the same amount of money, but do different amounts of work for it. (For example, a one-legged person wouldn't have to work as hard as someone without a disability.) It sounds like a very good, very noble system. Trouble is, it doesn't work. History has shown it.

Socialism is not quite so 'extreme', shall we say. Fundamentally, it is diluted communism, and I feel it is more likely to work.
"This above all, to thine own self be true." - Polonius, Hamlet.
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Postby Guest » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:48 pm

shaky economic principles hah what the workers take control of the means of production whats wrong with that and anyway the tourrist industry would probably cease anyway if we became communist so it doesnt particularly matter if we show theirs no way back and end the monarchy and the "you" you refer to is me talking about the united states as a whole not the wee kid i just couldnt be bothered typing united states sorry
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Postby kitty_cute » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:52 pm

Yeah like Vicky said, its a good idea, but in reality it doesnt work at all. Ive been to a lot of communist countries, and theres nothing in the shops or anything.
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Postby Guest » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:47 pm

what are you talking about look at bolivia and just cause there isnt anything in the shops isnt necesarily a bad thing so the wealth is redestributed equally and not just the wealthy can have comodaties and id love to now which countries your talking about because the closest to socialism not even full communism are in south america
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Postby Danni » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:30 am

If I'd been born 20 years earlier, I'd be a Labour party supporter. In their current form, I can't support them.

I actually like the Monarchy and don't mind the House of Lords. A lot of Lords are now elected there, so it's not that bad.

I guess because I've always been at the bottom of the barrel economically, I think more about worker's rights, and welfare and stuff. I can't support a Labour party that brings in tuition fees for university, when it was free for so long. I might not be able to afford to go to university, even with the extra help there is, simply because I'd most likely end up in debt.
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