Muhammed Cartoons

Feel free to debate any issues you wish here. Warning: The topics discussed and their content may on occassion offend some.

Postby pinkparrot » Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:15 pm

I'm fine. No need to worry; I'm not like that.
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Postby monkey » Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:35 pm

i hope that you are both feeling better.
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Postby C » Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:21 pm

About the original subject, I think that the muslims that staged violent protests were wrong but as Vicky says, they represent only a small proportions of muslims. The cartoons were rasist; I disagree with rasism towards anybody black, white, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew, atheist... why can't we all just get along?
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Postby madame_tigre » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:23 am

I was going to post a bit more about this topic, but everybody seems to have already said what i think so I'll just nod my head and agree. I despise Racism but staging violent protests is just as wrong. These extremists are giving all the many good Muslims a bad name!
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Postby mattie » Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:40 pm

I can't understand why British Muslims are protesting about the cartoons in London. The UK, like many Western countries, didn't publish the cartoons. Why are we being held accountable for something that happened in Denmark?

If they feel strongly about the cartoons, why not aim protests at the newspaper or Denmark?


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Postby kitty_cute » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:29 pm

I suppose thats true Mattie
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Postby parnassus » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:49 pm

I can't understand why British Muslims are protesting about the cartoons in London. The UK, like many Western countries, didn't publish the cartoons. Why are we being held accountable for something that happened in Denmark?


But they aren't aiming their protests at the British government. The original protest took place outside the Danish Embassy. As I have already written, I think it is foolish to hold any government accountable for the independent actions of a free press - no Danish government official advocated the publication of those cartoons. But as the protest was peaceful, and the demonstrators were asking for an apology rather than the right to murder the cartoonists, they were perfectly within their rights to do that.

Similarly, the peaceful rally planned for Trafalgar Square isn't aimed at the British government. In Cambridge there is usually a protest or a demo of some kind taking place on King's Parade, with students rallying in support of persecuted Falun Gong practicioners in China or abused Coca-Cola workers in Colombia. They are just trying to raise awareness amongst the British public and to make their views known. Should they have to fly to Colombia in order to tell Coke that they don't approve of the company's ethics?

Finally, the question, "Why are we being held accountable for something that happened in Denmark?" makes it sound as if British Muslims are somehow distinct from 'us'. They are citizens too, and now they are exercising their own right to free speech. Providing no one is advocating violence, I don't see why they shouldn't be permitted to educate people on who Muhammad really is to the Muslim people.

I can't remember whether I pointed it out in my original message, but Muslims believe that any picture of the Prophet is blasphemous - no matter how flattering it is. Islamic teaching forbids Muslims from trying to draw pictures of the prophets for fear of it leading to idolatory or insult. Some very devout Muslims won't even watch television or take photographs of people for this reason. The average Brit doesn't understand this, and we need to.
"This above all, to thine own self be true." - Polonius, Hamlet.
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Postby kitty_cute » Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:46 pm

Thats a very good point Vicky, and has made me think differently of this debate. We need to think more about other people's relgions before we say something which is incorrect.
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Postby mattie » Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:41 pm

I think all religions/countries should make more effort to tolerate each other. The pictures were exercising the Western right to freedom of speech but any civilised society should promote respect between people. Since the pictures were not respectful, they were wrong. Likewise, the original protests glorifying terrorist attacks were also wrong, and all the people taking part should have been arrested.

My problem is with the UK government. We went to war for no valid reason. In recent years the Labour government has also allowed dangerous terrorists to preach their views and threaten to carry out terrorist attacks. The truth is that instead of letting in only genuine immigrants who need our help, as was origninally intended, we have also failed to protect our own national security by allowing known terrorists to preach in the UK.

Political correctness has also gone mad. Thanks to this government we now can't celebrate national days or Christmas (have to say winter lights instead of Christmas lights these days) in case we offend other faiths. I don't blame immigrants for any of this - it is our government and MPs who have come up with such ludicrous ideas/policies.

I've got to be honest, I admire the Americans as they are not afraid to wave the American flag with pride. There is nothing wrong with patriotism IMO. If we did the same, I think that most immigrants would also join in as most of them also would like to feel a sense of belonging. We've lost that unfortunately.


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Postby kitty_cute » Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:28 pm

Yes, some political correctness has just gone too far. And it is the Governments fault, but I think we should stand up for Britain as a country more, like America - We used to be all 'Great Britain' but thats now faded out, which I think is sad. I just think we should be more careful who we let in the country - sometimes I feel a bit wary after more Muslim Extremists Preach yet again in London - Thing is, then people think thats what all Muslims are like - and they're not, so it gives Muslims a bad name, which causes racist acts, and incorrect knowledge of the religion.

Sorry if none of that made sense, I have a killer headache, and cant think straight >.<
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Postby parnassus » Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:22 pm

Political correctness has also gone mad. Thanks to this government we now can't celebrate national days or Christmas (have to say winter lights instead of Christmas lights these days) in case we offend other faiths.


To the best of my knowledge, no official legislation has been drafted that bans us from celebrating Christmas. I also see lights being advertised in shops and on the radio as 'Christmas lights' - the concept of 'winter lights' is completely new to me. I agree that some people slavishly adhere to a brand of political correctness that is very destructive, but I don't think they've taken matters quite this far.

I've got to be honest, I admire the Americans as they are not afraid to wave the American flag with pride. There is nothing wrong with patriotism IMO.


I consider myself a patriot, too. But the patriotism of many Americans, sadly, often stems from ignorance of other people's cultures rather than pride in their own. I had to go to an American school for a year when I was living in the Middle East, and my best friend still attends one. I was taught American geography, American history, and American law and government when I was at that school - there was nary a mention of any other country. And it wasn't just my grade that had to study America until it practically came out of our ears - it seemed to be like that all the way through. The kids in elementary school made models of ancient Greek temples at one point, but that was it. That was their sole exposure to international history. My best friend has been studying American literature in her English lessons ever since she walked through the doors of the place. Now, eleven grades later, they are studying the literature of the British Isles. British literature gets one year of teaching time. This means they get about three Shakespeare plays, some diluted Chaucer, a dash of Jane Austen and a couple of mediaeval epics. As for literature from other countries, forget it.

I am sure that not all American schools are like this, but it seems that many are. All but one of the Americans I have met in person - lovely people though they are - were shockingly ignorant about cultures and countries other than their own.
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Postby mattie » Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:59 pm

The term 'Christmas lights' was banned by a Council in Britain.

To back up my point further, I was trying to find out the date of Easter for 2006 i.e. this year. I looked at 2 calendars and not one even mentioned Easter. :?


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Postby david456 » Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:15 pm

I'm not getting drawn into politics or religious discussion, but I just wanted to state a fact about what happened in an area near me. The word Christmas was dropped from promotional signs for the switching on of Christmas lights the name changed to festive or winter lights at a cost of £15,000 I believe, which was footed by the tax payer and then was reinstated due to many demanding the word Christmas be put back.
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Postby kitty_cute » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:41 am

To back up my point further, I was trying to find out the date of Easter for 2006 i.e. this year. I looked at 2 calendars and not one even mentioned Easter.


That is rather shocking, seeing as we're a Christian Country..
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Postby parnassus » Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:16 am

The term 'Christmas lights' was banned by a Council in Britain.


Which one? I know Birmingham tried to do it, but the ban was revoked.

To back up my point further, I was trying to find out the date of Easter for 2006 i.e. this year. I looked at 2 calendars and not one even mentioned Easter.


Does this calendar mention the religious festivals of other religions? If it does, then your point is backed up. If it doesn't, then you just happen to have bought a completely secular calendar.

My calendar (I got it from Waterstone's) mentions practically every religious festival under the sun - Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, and Baha'i. It seems to have a strong Catholic slant, as it even tells me which saint's feast-day it is. (Today, if I remember rightly, is Saint Blaise.) I've never had difficulty finding liturgical festivals on any of my calendars.

Regarding your Easter query, Lent begins on the first of March and lasts for forty-five days*, ending with Good Friday. Easter falls on the Sunday two days later. I think that is the fifteenth of April, but someone double-check - my maths isn't great.

* Christians remember that we only fast for forty days during Lent, not the full forty-five - Sundays are excluded.
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