US Anti-immigration law

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US Anti-immigration law

Postby Hermionefan5 » Wed May 03, 2006 5:01 pm

I know it does not really apply to you all in Europe, but I thought I'd bring up a topic that has caused some uproar here in the US. Bush wants to stop Mexicans from illegally immigrating to the US. He says that they are not paying taxes (true) and that we are having to pay for all their medical needs and stuff like that. This is also true.

On the other side the jobs that the Mexicans and other immigrants take are jobs like McDonalds and cleaning jobs that no one really wants here. If we were to stop illegal "aliens" from coming here, many people would have to start working those jobs they don't want to do. The Mexicans and other immigrants that come here view these jobs as good because they can't make as much money in their home country as they can here, doing minimum wage (about 6 dollars and 30 cents here). Immigrants are also mad because the government says that once the law takes effect (if ever) they will have to go back in the offseason of their jobs and leave their kids here in the US. Family is very important to Hispanics, which are the group that is most targeted since our bordering neighbor to the south is Mexico. I believe that in order to fix the immigration problem we need to first help fix Mexico's economy. Then people will not really want that much to leave there. Mexico is a VERY poor country and all the people want is to come over here so they can make a better life for themselves and their families. Isn't that what America is about? Making a better life than the one you left in your home country? Whatever happened to the freedom on the Statue of Liberty?


link on background on anti-immigration protest and what the law entails:
http://www.kwabs.com/artman/publish/article_3369.shtml
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Postby parnassus » Wed May 03, 2006 7:20 pm

Illegal immigration is already illegal. (Sorry to be stating the obvious here!) The debate seems to be centred on whether 'illegal' automatically equals punishable.

Like Esther, I used to believe that Mr Bush's misguided policies are motivated by good intentions. But I've changed my mind - I think his intentions are false. Here is a man who claims that he invaded Iraq to promote peace, freedom, justice, equality, and all the rest of it, but who also refused to sign up to the Kyoto Pact because 'it would have been death to our economy' (when were his noble principles replaced by such callous pragmatism?). Here is a man who invades a faraway country to promote a better quality of life (an aim which, ironically enough, is to be bought by lives) but won't even help his next-door neighbour to achieve this same quality of life that he claims to care so much about.

The United States of America is wealthy enough already. Is giving one underpaid, overworked Mexican - or even a million such Mexicans - a job in a filthy McDonald's going to cause that vast global economic empire to come tumbling down? No. Bush may worry that the illegal immigrants are getting too much; I say that they are not getting enough. In Christianity, people blessed with wealth have not only a responsibility but a moral OBLIGATION to help the poor. Mr Bush claims to be a Christian. Let's see him prove it.
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Postby Hermionefan5 » Wed May 10, 2006 8:50 am

I agree fully with what you have said, Vicky. I dislike president Bush's policies very much. People have the right to live here if they want to or not and I don't think that we are going to be solving any problems by sending people home to a place where they are living much more poorly. I do not like how the president does not seem to care about why people are coming here. It's AMERICA for crying out loud! Aren't we the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave? Aren't we the country that said "Bring me your poor, your downtrodden, etc"? All of the people currently living in America (exepting the full-blood Native Americans) have had at least ONE person from their family tree come over. Why shouldn't we let them come over? We need to have people working to make this country work and I can guarantee some of the people who are upper class and middle class will not want to do the jobs at McDonalds that these people gladly do. I am so fed up with the president having his own agenda for everything! HE OBVIOUSLY HAD HIS OWN AGENDA FOR HURRICANE KATRINA TOO SINCE HE DIDN'T EVEN COME IN TO SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON UNTIL ABOUT THE THIRD DAY OF RESCUING! PEOPLE WERE DYING AND HE DIDN'T BLINK AN EYE! AND THEN HE'S SITTING THERE CRITICIZING KANYE WEST FOR SAYING THAT IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT NEW ORLEANS IS PRIMARILY AFRICAN-AMERICAN THAT HE DIDN'T COME TO THE RESCUE SOONER! MANY THINK THAT IF IT HAD BEEN A PREDOMINATELY WHITE CITY, HE'D HAVE BEEN THERE THE FIRST DAY! I don't know if the president is racist and I certainly hope he isn't, but the racial dividers in America became really clear during those days of tragedy where there weren't enough buses, wasn't enough water, wasn't enough food. Lots of people died in the hurricane, but many more deaths could have been prevented if there had been a better rescue job by the government and FEMA. This anti-immigration law is just adding more wood to the fire that I have burning about how president Bush needs to be taken out of office. I CAN'T WAIT FOR NOVEMBER 2007 WHEN I CAN VOTE FOR A NEW PRESIDENT! Hopefully, I won't get jipped this time. And the war...well, don't even get me started...I'm not a pacifist, I'm a realist, but I do believe that if you want to go to war, you need to observe the "just war" rules. The first of which being that you don't go to war unless you absolutely need to! I think we could have found a better way to respond to 9/11 than war. That was stupid because I think that that's just what they wanted. They probably wanted us to just get mad and start a war barely anyone would support. The UN didn't support us. We should have backed out then. Sure, it was good that we got rid of Saddam and other good stuff has been happening, but is war always the answer? Sure it exists, sure it sometimes, unfortunately has to be the answer, but was it for this war? 3 years, thousands of lost lives...not much gain (or at least the media isn't showing the gain anymore).
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Postby Page » Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:37 am

I am staunchly opposed to giving illegal aliens amnasty. I live in Sothern California, which is part of ground zero for this whole problem. I know many legal mmigrants and this is a slap in the face to them.


The illegals in question broke the law to come here, end of story. Why should they be rewarded with citizenship for breaking the law? I want to be rewarded for breaking the law, too. Point is, if they don't have to follow the law, I shouldn't have to, either.

RE: the wage issue, having illegals here drives down wages for everyone else. The argument that illegals will do jobs that Americans won't do is flawed. If these jobs paid a decent wage, then I would gladly do them if i didn't already have a job. E.g. If someone paid me $20 an hour to pick lettuce, I would gladly get down on my hands and knees in the hot sun and do it, dyspraxia or not, but I wouldn't work myself to death for $7 an hour picking lettuce like these illegals are doing b/c I have the qualifications and skills to get a better-paying job. Illegals do these jobs simply b/c there is no other option for them and employers don't want to pay as much money.




Also, I see an ungrateful attitude in a lot of the illegal alien activists, and it disgusts me. These people shouldn't even be here, and yet we are fairly lenient by allowing them to use our social services to some extent. YET THEY WANT MORE. This give-me-something-for-nothing attitude makes me angry. wose of all, our elected officials are listening to their demands, even though these people are here illegally and thus have no vote. It's a blatant attempt to pander to the illegals and buy the Latino vote. THESE OFFICIALS ARE SELLING OUT THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED THEM. To me, that's borderline treason.

When we try to enforce our immigration laws, the illegal alien activists got together and held a big rally in downtown Los Angeles a few months ago. These people assembled to complain (it's not wise to bite the hand that feeds you). Rather, these people should be down in Mexico City, protesting the corupt and inept government down there that has made things so bad that these people have to come here.
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Postby happy_go_lucky » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:09 pm

the point is america relise on their cheap labour and why should an invisible line make you anydifferent to them
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Postby parnassus » Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:55 pm

I am staunchly opposed to giving illegal aliens amnasty.


Use of words like 'amnesty' suggests that these people are enemies, and the phrase 'illegal aliens' dehumanizes them. In Britain the right-wing tabloid press refer to such people as 'illegal immigrants' or 'asylum seekers' (even when the terms are inaccurate) in a bid to reinforce the 'them and us' stereotype that keeps so many British citizens suspicious and distrustful of the people who come here illegally. 'Alien' is even worse. It's a word that is usually only used in wartime.

The Mexican immigrants are not aliens. They are people.

Why should they be rewarded with citizenship for breaking the law? I want to be rewarded for breaking the law, too. Point is, if they don't have to follow the law, I shouldn't have to, either.


The law already works in your favour, so you have no real need to break it. In Ethiopia a starving child might steal food to prevent death by starvation, thus breaking the law. His 'crime' is far less serious than mine would be if I were to do the same thing. To say that one rule should apply to all people works on the assumption that all people are already equal. They're not. To a certain extent, we are shaped and defined by our circumstances.

I wouldn't work myself to death for $7 an hour picking lettuce like these illegals are doing b/c I have the qualifications and skills to get a better-paying job. Illegals do these jobs simply b/c there is no other option for them and employers don't want to pay as much money.


A lot of Britons who are comfortably off tend to view the foreign people who come here illegally as opportunistic money-grabbers. From what I've read, the same attitude is rampant in America. In actual fact, illegal immigrants usually end up being cruelly exploited and subjected to all kinds of barbarities. There was a recent case in which twenty-one Chinese immigrants (illegal) drowned in the tides of Morcambe Bay, which is very close to where I live. They were kept virtual prisoners by a gang of British men who forced them to go out into one of Britain's most dangerous quicksands to fish up cockles to sell. They worked from dawn until dusk, lived in filthy conditions, and were paid a pittance. Most of them couldn't speak English and were kept segregated from their English neighbours, so they couldn't have complained even if they had wanted to. No one chooses to cockle-pick or uproot lettuces in the blazing sun unless they are desperate. Really desperate. And if a fellow human being is in that kind of plight, I don't care if they came into my country legally, illegally, or by flying rhinoceros - they need help.

Also, I see an ungrateful attitude in a lot of the illegal alien activists, and it disgusts me. These people shouldn't even be here, and yet we are fairly lenient by allowing them to use our social services to some extent. YET THEY WANT MORE.


America has 6% of the world's population. It consumes a massive 33% of the world's resources. It is officially the greediest country on earth. Grudgingly allowing a sick person - illegal immigrant or not - to see a doctor does not make the United States an overgenerous paradise. Ingratitude annoys me too, but I would never be able to accept gratitude from a person just because I gave them the right to visit a doctor after they had obtained a migraine from spending all day doing manual work in the ferocious sun. I would feel too ashamed of myself. Ashamed that I had even allowed a brother or a sister to fall into such a desperate circumstance in the first place. Not all illegal immigrants are nice people, obviously. Just like any people anywhere, some will be good, some will be bad, and some will be ugly. But according to the religion I follow, kindness shouldn't be restricted only to those who 'deserve' it. If it were, we would all be damned to Hell. None of us deserve to benefit from the greatest act of kindness in human history, yet Jesus still came down and made it. This is not a question of gratitude, but of love.

Rather, these people should be down in Mexico City, protesting the corupt and inept government down there that has made things so bad that these people have to come here.


That's easy to say when you have an adequate house to live in, enough food to eat, enough money to live on, and the right to freedom of speech. The poorest people in Mexico are too weak to have any impact whatsoever on the government. The rustle of banknotes is the only language that corrupt politicians are able to understand, and the people who are miserable enough to want to emigrate have no bribes to put forward. They've got nothing. No voice. No basic rights. No choice. Their hands are tied.

It is up to those of us who do have voices and choices to put pressure on corrupt governments around the world to ensure that one day, illegal immigration won't be necessary.[/b]
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Postby Page » Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:08 pm

Vicky, I understand your compassion, but the laws of the land still stand, and as Christians, we have to support and obey the laws placed before us (unless they forbid us to worship Christ. )

The USA is a sovereign country and we have a right to keep our borders secure and attempt to keep illegals out if the law says so (which it does). Also, were you aware of the fact that once illegals get here, they can't be easily deported? All they have to do is make it across the border and once they're here, we can't touch them unless they break some law and get arrested.


As I stated before, I know many Mexicans who immigrated here legally, and are here either on green card or are full-fledged citizens. I asked them about this and they told me that they are furious because since they had to go through proper procedure, it's like a slap in the face that these other people are even asking that legal status be given to them automatically.
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Postby happy_go_lucky » Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:27 pm

dont you feel that maybe sharing is worth a try if you are a christian what happened to love thy neighbour you immediatley criminalize these people by reffering to them as illegals you de humanise them and turn them into an abstract consept you have no right what so ever to remove these peoples humanity like that their is nothing that can justify that whatso ever dont you feel that maybe sharing your wealth might be the right and only justafiable thing to do
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Postby Hermionefan5 » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:14 pm

I don't remember if I said this before, but I have been down to Mexico and I have seen the houses they live in. I have met some people who live down there. Most have no choice but to be in their own country poor or to illegally come to the U.S. where there are decent jobs. They are great people and they are being treated badly by their government.

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This is a picture of a house in Mexico where I worked with my youth group building houses. The bars sticking out the top of it are there because, according to the Christian organization we worked with, if there are bars sticking out of the house, the government will not tax the owners of it. If a house has bars sticking out of it, then the house is considered "not finished" so no tax is needed. This Mexican government is so corrupt its people have to pretend their houses aren't done yet in order to save enough money for important money. Not to mention we have seen people living in landfills (yes landfills) there. In my opinion, it's okay to let people into the country if their country is not treating them well. It's not fair to say "you can't come" when this is the country that said everyone is welcome: "Bring me your poor"-said the Statue of Liberty's inscription. This is what our country stands for. If we don't want to let more people in then maybe we should go and help them improve their government situation. But as long as there are money and resources here then we should try to let people into our country.
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Postby Kentigern » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:50 pm

Hi all,

The issues under discussion here are very tricky issues, that are very difficult for governments to deal with.

People percieve immigration as a problem for many reasons. One of these reasons is that people are scared that immigrants will accept jobs for lower wages, pushing people in the lower classes into unemployment and poverty themselves. Another reason people percieve immigration as a problem is that they are scared of immigrants. Immigrants bring with them a different culture, and often a different religion and way of life. Instead of being scared of these people, I think we should allow these people to enrich our tradition and way of life. Our cultures and traditions should also enrich their culture and way of life.

What are the reasons for immigration. Simply put, an inbalance in the world. Some countries, such as the UK and the USA are very rich, and are very attractive places to work and to be. Other countires, such as Mexico or Ghana, are very poor and are not pleasant places to be at all.

In my oppinion 9/11 and other events since are symptoms of this inbalance. People hate the Western World, and all that we stand for, because we are selfish. We control world economics, and we don't want to cede control, so we keep the poor countries out. We have burdened poor countires with piles of debt and obbligations to us, and this leads to situations were genuinely good governemnts are unable to cope and are promptly overthrown by dictators and corrupt governments. In the UN, a minority of rich countries (the US and UK included) hold a permanent veto on the UN Security Council, meaning that we basically are bossing everyone else around.

I remember thinking shortly after 9/11 that we had an excellent opportunity to takes steps to treat other countires more fairly. While obviously terrorism cannot be justified in any circumstances, it did provide us with a wake up call that people do hate us, and do hate our selfishness.

The correct response to 9/11 would have been to ask why these people hate us so much, and to have taken steps to be less selfish, and to use our countries richness and resources in ensuring that other countires also develop the standards we are used to here.

The wrong response to 9/11 was what happened. We waged war making people hate us all the more, and fueling the cycle of violence.

We have a duty in my oppinion to stop being selfish. World trade rules should be ripped up and started again. Bush should sign the Kyoto protocol. By not siging it, he made people hate us all the more. We should stop being selfish and defending our own interests, and instead help other countries and peoples prosper.

If our countires treated poor countries with more respect and helped build them up so that they can be on an equal footing with us (this would be a long, difficult but necesary process), and if people loved and showed compassion for everyone instead of being selfish (we can do this now), then immigration would cease to be percieved as a problem.
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Postby Hermionefan5 » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:59 pm

I completely agree, Gordon. :)
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Postby parnassus » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:44 pm

I have nothing more to add to this discussion, but...SHANNA! Welcome back, girl! :D

Where have you been? * grumbles *
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Postby Kentigern » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:28 pm

Trade talks designed to help poor countries trade more easily have broken down. These trade talks have been on the go since around 2001, and the aim of them was to try and brake down trade barriers so that poorer countires could trade with rich countries and get a good deal.

These talks have collapsed because of disagreements about farm subsidies between the USA and Europe. As I understand it the USA and Europe basically pay their farmers lots of money to keep them in business, meaning that we produce too much food so we don't buy from farmers abroad. Farmers outside the EU and USA are not paid lots of money to keep them in business by their governemnts. As they cannot sell the food they produce they suffer as a result.
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Postby Hermionefan5 » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:50 pm

parnassus wrote:I have nothing more to add to this discussion, but...SHANNA! Welcome back, girl! :D

Where have you been? * grumbles *


Well, I've been working, going to visit my sister in Chicago, going to the beach, and taking care of my puppy. 8) I'm glad to be back though! I will be gone tomorrow through next Saturday though on a Habitat trip to South Dakota! :) It's good to be here again today. :D
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Postby mattie » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:27 pm

I agree with the bit about the right wing press. :? :roll:

I'm personally against large scale immigration, but mainly on environmental grounds. If we are to have such a large increase in the population, when the UK already has one of the highest population densities in the world, how are we going to house such vast numbers of immigrants? The answer, of course, is that we are going to have to build more houses on our already rapidly disappearing countryside. :( :cry: A small and densely populated island like the UK simply cannot afford to house millions of immigrants without severly damaging the environment.

Also, in this age of terrorism, is it wise to have vast numbers of people come into this country unchecked? Even taking terrorism aside, it is widely accepted that a lot of the guns and drugs have come from Eastern Europe, mainly via Eastern European gangs. :( Most of the immigrants living in the UK haven't even had their criminal records checked, so is it any wonder that this is the case?

Having said all that, I am strongly in favour off immigration. We need people with skills, who can help to build our economy. And then, of course, there are those who are genuinely in danger and, therefore, desperately need our help. We have a duty, as world citizens, to ensure that they can live in relative safety.

Immigration is only a good thing if it is controlled to an acceptable level.


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