Do you care about the enviroment?

Feel free to debate any issues you wish here. Warning: The topics discussed and their content may on occassion offend some.

Do you care about the enviroment?

No!
2
10%
Yes.It is a very important issue.
19
90%
I don't know.
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 21

Postby Bladen » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:00 pm

the hole is only quite small and located over australlia, global warming and the depletion of the ozone layer are 2 entirely different things.

The Ozone layer protects us from harmful Ultraviolent radiation from sun rays which can give people skin cancer. There is an Australlian law saying that hats must be worn after 12PM.

Global Warming is just basically he warming of the planet but the global warming everybody whines about is Carbon Dioxide polluting the atmosphere and stopping sun rays from escaping the atmosphere therefore heating the earth, Carbon Dioxide isn't just emitted from oil burning and coal firing, every living organism emits it, even the sea and earth emit it, it's a relatively harmful gas in anyway though, it's Carbon MONoxide that kills.

American propaganda does indeed say that global warming isn't real all together but for the wrong reasons, so they can keep raking in $ from burning oil and coal therefore influencing CHina and India. Renewable energy sources is a good thing and I agree with it but I disagree that the Global warming that people think exists does not exist. I think it's all part of a natural cycle of the planet and that the Carbon emissions from all this barely does anything at all.
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Postby intowiz » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:41 pm

yes living organisms create it but the biggest amount are created by our pollution (factories cars)
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Postby Bladen » Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:14 pm

not really, consider how many living things there are on this planet. Even if a tiny bit is emitted by an individual life form in mass numbers the volume of CO2 emitted is immense, thing is it gets absorbed by the plants and converted into oxygen so it's the plants and trees that have made it so only a small percentage reaches the atmosphere. about .98% of the atmosphere is CO2
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Postby intowiz » Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:14 am

if we didt pollute so much though we could slow the process down.
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Postby intowiz » Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:15 am

ok my arguments are s**t right now ill have a think and ill come back.
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Postby Kentigern » Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:44 am

Today's contributions to this debate have been interesting.

The hole in the Ozone layer (which I understood was over Antarctica, though I am not denying that there might be one over Australia) is a seperate issue from carbon dioxide emissions.

Over the last 150years the ammount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has doubled. Before we came along and messed things up the earth carbon dioxide system was in good balance. As an approximation, what was emmitted was removed again by another process, so the level of Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere changed slowly over the course of millions of years.

The problem is that while the release of carbon dioxide by man may be small compared to natural processes, there is nothing to balance the additional carbon dioxide that man releases so it builds up in the atmosphere causing the global carbon dioxide level to change very quickly indeed. We are not helping ourselves by chopping down the rainforests - this means that one of the balancing mechanisms for natural processes is also removed.

It is worth pointing out that the earth's carbon dioxide system is a very complicated system. As soon as you knock emisions into the atmosphere out of balance (like man is doing at the moemnt), then slowly over the timescale of hundreds of thousands of years another process will kick in to balance the effect. In the long term there will not be a problem, however in the short term (which I count as tens of thousands of years) we have a serious problem.

There is a danger that we put so much carbon dioxide into the atmosphere that we overload the earth's system with carbon dioxide so much that we do irreperable damage to the earths climate system. Once the system is overloaded, then there is no return, and all life on earth will die. There is no knowing when that will happen, I *don't think* it will happen in our life time, and it may not be possible for us to do it. All this is an unknown.

To conclude, some 50million years ago a large chunk (possibly around a half) of the worlds Natural Gas supplies burried in the oceans was catestrophically released over a very short timescale. In the atmosphere it all changed into Carbon Dioxide very quickly. Today burning fossil fuels we are doing exactly the same thing, however in our case it is more serious as we are turning a lot more than half of the world's gas supply into carbon dioxide. This event 50million years ago caused a marked mass extinction (not as big as the one the caused the extinction of the dinosaurs, but something geologically significant none the less). This mass extinction was due to the acidification of the oceans because of the excess carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, and a rise in global temperature. The same will happen this time round. Will that mass extinction include humans? We don't know, but we mustn't be arrogant and think that we will exist on this planet until the planet is destroyed! We are quite capable of causing our own extinction...

Climate change is a VERY serious issue. Action is needed NOW to stabalise the level of Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere, to stop things getting any worse.
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Postby intowiz » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:48 am

thankyou kentigern, i wish i could have said what you said. we are causing to much pollution, and you are right with the rainforest growing smaller by the day there is a lack of something to counter act the co2 emmisions.
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Postby Bladen » Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:56 am

Glad someone else knows that trees aren't there just for firewood and display. Trees aren't the only things that absorb carbon, Everything living emits AND absorbs carbon it's a massive cycle, the plants are a very big factor and the more trees being cut down the more that we're screwing this planet up. What I reckon is even with the plants depleting if CO2 emissions are cut down dramatically then the excess carbon will eventually be absorbed, bascially the reason that this hasn't happened yet is because big countries like the USA and China wont stop and they're the main contribution to all of this, Europe has the right idea but unless the USA and China stop then there's no point in stopping at all. While alot of carbon is abosrbed, everyday more is thrown into the atmosphere.

It's being exaggerated though but it is still an intense issue, I still believe the climate changes aren't related, considering we've been hurling CO2 for a long time and it just started happening now is a factor to why I believe that.

If carbon emissions from all this industrial related sources are cut then I reckon we'll see a change for the better.
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Postby parnassus » Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:24 pm

I do not believe it has been exaggerated. The people who are most vocal in claiming that the situation has been distorted are nearly always paid-up members of the American Republican Party who have sordid business interests. They are stupidly short-sighted and are more interested in profiting now than in having a beautiful and sustainable world to live in later.
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Postby Bladen » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:53 pm

I'm talking about the public overall view on global warming though, not the actual global warming itself, I see them as 2 entirely different things. Somehow.
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Postby Kentigern » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:56 pm

This issue has been in the news a lot today. In short, we are in big trouble climate wise. I have met quite a few scientists who work on the issue of climate change, and in all cases their assesment of the situation is bleak. I suspect the publics view on this is probably more in line with scientific thinking than political thinking.

Bladen is right in that the earths carbon system is a massive cycle. It's also a very complicated cycle that is not fully understood yet.

Carbon dioxide levels have been steadily climbing for the last 100years or so, and each year we pump even more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere so the level increases by more and more each year.

The worst is yet to happen. India and China, the two largest countries in the world population wise, are only beginning to emmit carbon dioxide at western levels. This means that the rate of increase of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will increase even more drastically.

You are wrong to say that we are only noticing global warming now. In my parent's lifetimes they have seen a dramatic change in the climate of the UK. Winters used to be a lot colder, and snow used to be a lot more common. Over the 47 years my parents have been alive they have seen large changes.

Until now we have seen slow gradual changes, however as more and more carbon dioxide is pumped into the atmosphere the level of carbon dioxide will increase ever more quickly and the climate will change even more rapidly making it more and more noticable. This is why it has been increasingly noticable in the last few years.

We in the west need to cut carbon dioxide emissions as much as possible, and we are going to have to make some pretty spectacular gestures to the third world to help them cut emissions.

Climate change could (and I don't think I am scaremongering here) lead to war. A lot of the Middle Eastern conflict at the moment actually revolves around water supplies. I suspect the same is true for a lot of the African conflicts. As rainfall decreases in some areas war will become more probable to secure water supplies. As land becomes uninhabital and useless war will be some countires only option to ensure survival.

Most of the comentators I have read in the press today have declared the debate to be over. Humans cause climate change. Now we need to do something. Fast. Contrary to what I said last night, some scientists believe that we only have 10years to go before we damage our planet to such an extent that things become serious.

Climate change is as serious if not more serious than the nuclear posturing during the cold war in my view.

Finally, read this. It's ghappening - Now!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 22,00.html

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Postby Bladen » Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:03 am

I get you there but thepublic and randoms are all: GLOBAL WARMING, OMFG wE'RE ALL GOING TO BURN TO DEATH and stuff.

There was a South Park episode taking the mick out of the amount of hype and exaggeration it's got, you want to ask the real scientists and get the real facts, not the stuff from the media but I tell you there both similarities and differences between the scientific and political view, the scientific view has been overlooked and summarized into something far from what it is and combined with the political side, we got mass panic and hype, the scientists only released little info about bird flu and it still caused mass panic.

These global warming estimations are also based on "what will happen if things keep going the way they are." If CO2 emissions are cut enough then chances are that it will be alot less severe.

What my question is, is now that everyone knows how to prevent more severe damage and how to prevent global warming's full throttle, why hasn't anything been done outside europe?
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Postby Dork_Lord » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:58 am

I agree with Bladen that whatever we do concerning this issue we shoild not panic or listen to media hype. It's always important to remember that the media can make an issue such as bird flu seem as if it's definately going to kill millions, which didn't. It's importatn to remember there is a lot that can be done and is being done on the issue.
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Postby parnassus » Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:14 pm

Gordon is not basing his arguments on media hype. He is basing them on his experience as a PhD student in Natural Sciences. If you look at the papers that aren't prone to sensationalism (science and economics journals, mostly - not the sort of thing that I usually read!) you can see that we have a grave problem. America's refusal to sign up to the Kyoto Pact because it would have been 'death to our economy' (President Bush's excuse) the lack of constructive assistance available to the Third World, and general apathy in the so-called 'developed world' are all contributing to the problem.
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Postby parnassus » Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:18 pm

What my question is, is now that everyone knows how to prevent more severe damage and how to prevent global warming's full throttle, why hasn't anything been done outside europe?


People in developing countries have tried. But they aren't equal to Europe in economic terms, and they just don't have the money to participate in carbon-cutting schemes. This gave the US government a selfish excuse to opt out of Kyoto, arguing that if India didn't have to join then America wasn't going to sign up either. They were completely ignoring the fact that America is considerably richer than India and can afford to participate.
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