Could you forgive...?

Feel free to debate any issues you wish here. Warning: The topics discussed and their content may on occassion offend some.

Would you forgive...?

Yes
4
15%
No
10
38%
Don't know
1
4%
It hasn't happened so I'm not in the position to say.
11
42%
 
Total votes : 26

Postby Qasim » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:46 pm

It's always going to be easier to forgive if your a firm believer in God, because you know that when the world comes to an end, Judgement Day will come and they will get punished for their crimes. And so will you, if you go do something irrational and wrong. It's easier said than done though.
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Postby Thirteen-thirty-seven » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:49 pm

Katie, I don't know what happenned to your sister, but I don't think it could have been your fault. I don't think you would have hurt your sister on purpose.
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Postby intowiz » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:40 pm

qasim that the kind of mentallity that helps the religious rike frown blob up for tehre own gain. jesus camp tehre taught that it doesnt matter what you do to the planet its all coming to an end. we shouldnt think like that we should think about how to keep the earth preserved for genearations to come.
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Postby Qasim » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:47 pm

I don't remember ever subscribing to Jesus camp's mentality. I was talking about murder and crimes, and that somebody who believes in God will not feel the need to take revenge, because God will rightly do it for them at the end of time. When did this topic turn to earth preservation? :)
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Postby intowiz » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:49 pm

wait that doesnt sound christian at all we dont hurt peaple because theyll be tortured by god thats illwishing against people.
i thought your god forgave people.
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Postby Qasim » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:58 pm

I am not a Christian, although I believe both I and Christians believe in the same God, it isn't a case of 'yours' and 'mine'. It's not illwishing at all- your belief in them recieving their due justice from God will allow you to move on from tragedy.

I do believe God forgives, but not in the way Christians do. My understanding of the Christian idea of forgiveness is that God/Jesus will forgive no matter what you do. I believe that at the end of time you're bad deeds will be weighed against your good deeds, and whichever is more is the factor in which yo'll either go to heaven or hell.
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Postby intowiz » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:00 pm

thats not forgiveness at all. oh your forgiven my cild for teh way i designed you now go burn for all eternity. thats not forgiveness.
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Postby Qasim » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:17 pm

I think you misunderstand me. You say it like I think he forgives them and then sends them to hell, I don't. God can forgive someone from murder, if the person does enough to repent, and if God accepts this repentence. Am I arguing for a lost cause here, or do you believe in (a) God.

At the end of the day, God is merciful. He is the all-knowing, all-aware. So leaving it upto his judgement is the fairest option out there. Other people's fates aren't for us to decide.
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Postby intowiz » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:21 pm

1. if god forgives all the why would hell exist
2. no im agnostic
3.we should not trust our actions or judgement to a sky wizard.
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Postby Qasim » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:33 pm

1.) That's the point I made, God doesn't forgive us all. I beleive he'll weigh our good deeds with our bad and decide whether we should go to either heaven or hell.

2.) Calling God a sky-wizard doesn't sound agnostic-like! I believe God is present. He is everywhere. He is right there beside you now, watching you. The fact you can't see him doesn't really matter.

3.) Why not? You want us to decide ourselves whether we deserve to go to heaven? Because I know which one I'd choose. Whether or not it would be right only God would know, ironically. :P
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Postby parnassus » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:37 pm

Your use of the word 'sky wizard' is interesting. When people begin to talk about God, the first thing they have to do is get the magician image out of their head. He's not some entity sitting up there in the sky, doling out presents and punishments accordingly. He just is.

Forgiveness is the best kind of freedom. (In fact, probably the only real freedom.) God doesn't just give forgiveness; He is forgiveness itself. To know God is to be totally free. But that freedom isn't forced upon us. We have to choose it. For Christians, the choice is epitomised in the cross of Jesus Christ. God loved us enough to become one of us, to share in our lives, from the joy to the agony. Through Jesus, we have the opportunity to share in His life - if we choose.

I believe that at the end of time you're bad deeds will be weighed against your good deeds, and whichever is more is the factor in which yo'll either go to heaven or hell.


This seems to detract from the idea of mercy. Saying that you could somehow earn your way to Heaven by doing good deeds (because that's what it amounts to) is like saying that we have something to offer God. But what can we create that He hasn't already made? He gives everything to us.

As a Catholic, I do believe that good works are important. They show our acceptance of God's mercy. But I don't believe that doing good things is enough to determine your place in Heaven. If it were, I would lose my willingness to be loving - kindness would just become a form of currency. Jesus says, "You have received without payment, so give without payment." This level of generosity is only possible because He has been generous to us first. Without God's mercy we wouldn't even know what love is, so how can we offer him any?
"This above all, to thine own self be true." - Polonius, Hamlet.
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Postby Qasim » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:07 pm

This seems to detract from the idea of mercy. Saying that you could somehow earn your way to Heaven by doing good deeds (because that's what it amounts to) is like saying that we have something to offer God.


So what exacty do you believe we have to do to attain paradise? From what I understand the Christian mentality is 'Oh, it'll be ok if I kill this man, you know, because ultimately God will forgive me and ship me off to heaven'. The assumption that God will forgive us for the sole reason that he loves us is fundamentally wrong. From this mentality you could go your whole life doing bad things, in the end you'd be taking advantage of God's mercy. You wouldn't be able to say 'I rightfully deserve to go to heaven'. Ultimately, there would be no point in religion if life was like this. It is like your saying your belief in God gives you a free pass to paradise.

But what can we create that He hasn't already made? He gives everything to us.

We cannot create anything that God has not already made. What I mean when I talked of good deeds are deeds that are pleasing in the eyes of God. This life is a test. It is a constant struggle between doing right and doing wrong. You have the ultimate choice of determining whether what you do pleases God, or displeases Him. [/i]
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Postby parnassus » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:34 pm

So what exacty do you believe we have to do to attain paradise? From what I understand the Christian mentality is 'Oh, it'll be ok if I kill this man, you know, because ultimately God will forgive me and ship me off to heaven'.


Firstly, I believe that Heaven isn't something to be 'attained'. It's not like cosmic chocolate cake. It's union with God. There is absolutely nothing that finite beings can do to unite themselves with the Infinite - except remain open to Him.

Likewise, forgiveness isn't something that you 'get'. It's something that you become. Forgiveness is transformative. If you genuinely believe that God has forgiven you, then your understanding of mercy goes too deep for you to be able to say, "I can kill that person and God will still forgive me." In even saying that, you have sealed yourself up away from Our Lord. You are no longer open to His love, which was expressed by the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Jesus. He died with us so that we might have life with Him. This is how Christians 'understand' forgiveness. (I put 'understand' in inverted commas, as no one could fully comprehend love that deep.)

It's easy to write this but not so easy to live it out. As imperfect human beings, we get tempted to be cruel by lots of different things. Sometimes temptation wins. When that happens, we ask for God's healing. He will show us how to make it right with the people we have hurt. But we don't make it right with them in order to earn ourselves a place in Heaven. We make it right purely because it is the good thing to do. It's righteousness for righteousness' sake. When we love for no other reason but love, we are living up to our calling as God's children.

You wouldn't be able to say 'I rightfully deserve to go to heaven'.


I will never be able to say that and I don't want to be able to say that. No matter how hard we try, not even the kindest and most loving person alive 'deserves' God. If we talk about Him as a thing to be deserved, in the same way that good students deserve good grades or hard workers deserve a pay rise, we reduce Him to the level of a created thing.
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Postby parnassus » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:40 pm

We cannot create anything that God has not already made. What I mean when I talked of good deeds are deeds that are pleasing in the eyes of God. This life is a test. It is a constant struggle between doing right and doing wrong. You have the ultimate choice of determining whether what you do pleases God, or displeases Him.


What I meant is that we cannot create goodness. All goodness comes from God Himself. If I show love to another person, I'm showing them God. He is shining through me. I can't create the light. I can be no more than a mirror or a window. Goodness doesn't come about through our own work, but through receptiveness to God.

It is like your saying your belief in God gives you a free pass to paradise.


No. It is the other way round. God's belief in me (or, more aptly phrased, God's grace in me) makes me worthy for Heaven. I have accepted that grace. I want to be a window into God. I've got nothing to recommend me except that want. He accomplishes the rest. As St Ignatius of Loyola once wrote, "He is labouring for our good."
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Postby Qasim » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:06 am

But we don't make it right with them in order to earn ourselves a place in Heaven. We make it right purely because it is the good thing to do. It's righteousness for righteousness' sake. When we love for no other reason but love, we are living up to our calling as God's children.


To me there is no difference. Whether you like it or not, you are pleasing God by being righteous, whichever way you look at it and choose to see it. And God will remember these acts of righteousness when we are judged. The point I am trying to make is that yes, we do loving righteousness things for the sake of righteousness, and this in turn is recognised by God. We are pleasing God, we are fighitng for his cause, and this is what we have to offer Him. He didn't create us to ignore him.

What I meant is that we cannot create goodness. All goodness comes from God Himself. If I show love to another person, I'm showing them God. He is shining through me. I can't create the light. I can be no more than a mirror or a window. Goodness doesn't come about through our own work, but through receptiveness to God.


Again it depends on how you look at it. God created goodness for us to utilize. I agree with you when you say that we can show people God through our actions.

You are no longer open to His love, which was expressed by the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Jesus. He died with us so that we might have life with Him. This is how Christians 'understand' forgiveness. (I put 'understand' in inverted commas, as no one could fully comprehend love that deep.)


This is where the line is drawn between us, and why so many debates turn to nought. The Christian belief that Jesus was God, and that he sacrificed himself so that we could go to heaven I cannot believe. I believe this is the direct result of Christianity being changed and altered through the ages. If it had remained unchanged and perfect, then there would be no need for God to send down another Prophet, Muhammad (peace be upon him). But obviously you do not believe in him, and this is veering off topic.
God does not need us. He wants good for us, but not to the point where he will make our given choice himself by sacrificing himself. He leaves that choice to us.

He is merciful, he can forgive us our wrong deeds. But in the end wrong and right will be weighed, and how you lived will determine where you go after you die.
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