Homosexuality

Feel free to debate any issues you wish here. Warning: The topics discussed and their content may on occassion offend some.

Postby monkey » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:33 am

I am a christain. I think homophoebia is nto good. I Have friends who are gay and I ahve freinds who are bi. I am nto afraid of them. I knwo peoplw who are afraid of them. They have reasons. it is not a good reason to treat peple in not a nice way. Btu there fear is nto caused from nothing. I think it is good to rememerb taht it is not nice to treat peopel badly. But often people treat people badly ebcuase other people treat them badly. My freind who is afraid of gay peopel was abused by a gay man wehn he was a boy. It is not alreaight to say bad thigns about them but i can understadn why. Understanding why does nto make somthign ok. but it does make more sence. His fear amkes perfect sence. beign mean to people who never hert him does nto.
monkey
The Cat's Pajamas !!
 
Posts: 1395
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:21 am

Postby Spoon » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:54 pm

chocolatefudgecake wrote:Thinking about it, some women DO choose to be gay - but for political reasons. I think they're called radical feminists. unless i've got the different fiminist groups mixed up.

During the suffrage movement when women were campaigning for their political rights a lot of the radical feminists were lesbians. Politically I think it made sense at the time and was purely reactionary. It may seem ridiculous in our age but given the inequalities many women were facing I can see why those in the movement might choose lesbianism as a way of retaining romantic and sexual relationships when they thought that having relationships with men would contradict their political message.

I think that if certain people base their views on homosexuality, bisexuality, transgenderism on their religion then that's fair enough - it's all about how they choose to interpret things. However, using religion as an excuse (because that's all it ever could be) for homophobia, biphobia, transphobia (or any other phobia or ism for that matter!) is utterly wrong. I think it's also important to note that whilst homophobic hate crime is still higher in the U.K than it should be, it is still low in comparison to other countries. Most of the countries were homosexuality is illegal are very religious. Take Iran for example, where if you're found to be gay you'll either be forced to have a sex change or publicly hung. This IS extreme, but if we didn't live in the UK then having homophobic views based on religion would be a part of the cause of such a horrific religious hatred. I think it's important to bear that in mind.


As far as the nature vs nurture debate goes, I'm not particularly for either. I think it's all so much more complicated. I mean, gender is social and biological sex is physical then it just messes it all up. As soon as trans people are thrown in to the mix (whose bodies may be different to their genders) then you start to ask which people are attracted to, the body or the gender, the physicality or the mind? There are a million different way of being a man or a woman. I'd argue that it's a spectrum and that man and woman are just roles that people live in within society. Everyone has a different sort of body, we don't all have the same shape bodies, or genitals or anything and everyone has a different level of femininity and masculinity so what exactly are we all attracted to? Boxing people in to gay and straight totally discounts the wide variety of people that live in the world. There's millions of types of people, not just 2 - we're not just attracted to 'same' or 'different' or 'both'.
Spoon
Mega Poster
 
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:39 pm
Location: London

Postby druchi » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:04 pm

Ok here is the gay perspective

I agree more or less with exactly what has been said but im just going to say if i came out to EVERYONE not just my friends i really wouldnt survvie till the end of the week the area Im in is very bad and i would not only endanger myself but those around me if i were to be openly gay to everyone

The pope is supposed to hate gays did we expect anything less? Just wish religon would stop being used as an excuse to fuel bigotry and any type of fear / hate mongering

You are born it there is no nature vs nurture. I was a mummys boy because perhaps i was born with a bit more femmine personality who can say but it is most definitely decided in your genes its just sort of confuseing

And no i cant see anyone 'chooseing' to be gay ever why subject yourself to a life of fear and reproach for the way you are? and i ponderd myself the question if i had the choice i would have chosen straight but i didnt and i accept that now
I must find a truth that is true for me . . . the idea for which I can live or die.
druchi
Splendiferous Member
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:19 pm
Location: Scotland, Helensburgh

Postby Spoon » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:10 pm

I don't think anyone can choose to be attracted to anyone. However, I think it's impossible to judge who you will be attracted to next because it's about attraction is about so much more than what genitals someone has (or you perceive them to have) I think people can generalise that they are predominantly heterosexual or homosexual based on past attractions but that most people will at some time in their lives be attracted to somebody outside of that and whether you take that attraction on board or dismiss it (because you figure that you can't properly be attracted to someone of said gender or sex because you know yourself to be homo/hetero) is a choice.

It can also be a choice as to whether you decide to have sex with somebody you are romantically or emotionally attracted to but not sexually, or a choice not to have sex with somebody you're sexually attracted to but to retain an emotional/romantic relationship.
Spoon
Mega Poster
 
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:39 pm
Location: London

Postby Syrons » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:43 am

If you don't like someone from a different race or sexuality, they are quick to judge you as raciest or homophobic. Why can't people understand, I don't exactly get on with most people from my own race? or i couldn't care less what you fancy or whatever? I just don't exactly enjoy your personality, that's why, I do not wish to talk too you... I don't go around talking about what I fancy or whatever, or keep saying I am straight all day... It's basically there insecurity's, and I don't think some realize, how they go on all day...
It's exactly same as, i don't want too know, what a mate has been doing with his girlfriend "yup that's all we need to know" now lets talk about something else...

What I am trying to say is I wouldn’t want to talk to somebody with that personality in a white race? So why do some people, feel pressurised that they must talk to people, just because he’s a different race? Honestly I have seen it countless times, with my own eyes with people... The reason is they just want to be accepted by everyone, deep down they could be racist as anything or homophobic. I always found it really silly myself, as they pretend so much to fit in... The problem is they should quit hating, and just come to some logical thinking people, that any races are exactly the same. They are not totally unique. They may have a different culture. Personality wise, there are not many differences from people in any race. You get your nice people, your honest people, your super happy people, your cool people, your people who hate life, you people who like killing people, arrogant people, uptight people, shy people and so on... Like I said, I can talk to anything, which I feel has the same sort of values to life, it’s pretty simple too me... You always get the same things like French are Arrogrant, I saw probably more people willing to help, than probably in my own town, when I went to Le Mans. Don’t ever trust Italian, they will always go behind your back. I always hear things, and they be really nice around them because other people like them, then you hear everything afterwards, once that person has gone. It’s probably another reason, why I don’t like socializing very much, with loads of people because I don’t trust many people, to say the least...I do find it quite fascinating, if i am honest. If I wasn't learning things in class, then i was probably learning something about people in class... I always found listening to people quite interesting, since I can remember, it's probably why I wasn't always there in class, instead in my head thinking...
User avatar
Syrons
Mega Poster
 
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:56 pm
Location: Colchester

Postby Fortnox » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:04 pm

You're right, simply to acknowledge racism exists is to racially descriminate- and children are proof that racism is not natural in our instincts, but purely our culture. Children don't descriminate for one anothers skin- not in pre-school or in fact school, but as they reach toward secondary school they start to find new ways to label and judge one another, and find themselves incapable of ever not noticing that they are of different races again.

At least, that's my experience. I'm not really attracted to people outside of my race, and I'm fully aware this is because of my upbringing in a predominantly white culture and location, but most of the time I don't feel at all uncomfortable around people outside of my race either. However there are times when I get negative impulses- such things that it is your social responsibility to resist. Similiar to this Jim Carrey stand-up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKrZc4Kin-o

We kinda got side-tracked into racism, but it fits as a good analogy for homosexual judgements as well. I'm even more relaxed with my gay friends though- I don't, or haven't yet, had any negative impulses around them. But in most liberally-minded crowds everyone is still going to be aware that they're different from the majority and, even subconsciously, treat them differently- even if it's preferential, as you were explaining, it is still discrimination.

There's another factor in homosexual culture. "Scene gays" that try their best to be ridiculously iffeminate, dress in a certain recognisable way and join a sub-culture that makes them constantly stand out in a crowd not part of that sub-culture. Does this help or hinder the homosexual cause as a hole?
Image
User avatar
Fortnox
Forum Master
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:17 pm

Postby druchi » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:02 pm

you mean the gay accent? *cringe* mehhhhh i think its a personal choice and it really doesnt affect the larger scene but again its whatever that person is in too

I myself look quite femminine and my clothes are tight combats tight fit t shirt and fishnet under that my hair is worn slick back so yeah i cant really say much xD

I think the biggest summary is if they choose the gay accent gay style that we know its an individual choice they are trying to attract someone as quickly as possible as being part of that 'sub-culture' but it also makes them a target of discrimination but thats true of anyone who acts without the norm
I must find a truth that is true for me . . . the idea for which I can live or die.
druchi
Splendiferous Member
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:19 pm
Location: Scotland, Helensburgh

Postby Spoon » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:40 pm

Personally I think it's less about whether someone fits a stereotype or not and more about why they do. I mean some guys are naturally feminine, have been more influenced by feminine voices and clothing etc and so they just end up that way but then there's some people who just suddenly become a stereotype the minute they come out. That worries me a little bit, because if people are being drawn to that and feel they have to be that then it shows something's wrong with the way the media is portraying homosexuality.

I was watching a documentary about older lesbian, gay and bisexual people the other day and I think listening to their experiences really sums a lot of stuff up. The only places that people could go before homosexuality was legalised was underground gay clubs...so there's no wonder this whole scene esque thing happened. They'd have to go in drag too to make the couples look straight. Everyone had to choose butch or femme to try and fit in and not get arrested. Whilst obviously that's not the case now, I think that some of that history has crossed over in to the gay scene as it is today. It's also still in part what the media picks up on.
Spoon
Mega Poster
 
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:39 pm
Location: London

Postby druchi » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:23 pm

When you come out and suddenly are that 'sterotype' the reason is you wanted to be like that but then everyone would know your sexual orientation.

you cant just say that the minute they are out they turn to a sterotype.

haha and i watched that too it did make me think alot and i found it intresting but i think since times have become more accepting (that could change) its easier to be more open about it.
I must find a truth that is true for me . . . the idea for which I can live or die.
druchi
Splendiferous Member
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:19 pm
Location: Scotland, Helensburgh

Postby Spoon » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:25 pm

druchi wrote:When you come out and suddenly are that 'sterotype' the reason is you wanted to be like that but then everyone would know your sexual orientation.

you cant just say that the minute they are out they turn to a sterotype.


In my experience a fair few people do do this at first. People assume that once you come out you will make a big deal of looking/acting/talking about gay things. I think a lot of people do it because they just think they're supposed to and also some people feel very liberated knowing that they can be those things now that people are aware of their sexuality. I know a fair few gay males who were very flamboyant and in all honesty crude about their sexuality at first because they got a bit excited that they could and went over board with speaking about it.

druchi wrote:haha and i watched that too it did make me think alot and i found it intresting but i think since times have become more accepting (that could change) its easier to be more open about it.


I think this is a different one because this was a documentary style play based on people's real life experiences which I had on DVD from age concern. It's called 'gateway to heaven'.
Which documentary did you watch?
Spoon
Mega Poster
 
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:39 pm
Location: London

Postby druchi » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:16 pm

I dont know the name was it on Channel 4 perchance? it was all about gay marriage and it did alot of interviews with longer married gay couples

il try and find it on you tube later when im not about to collapse on the keyboard
I must find a truth that is true for me . . . the idea for which I can live or die.
druchi
Splendiferous Member
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:19 pm
Location: Scotland, Helensburgh

Postby intowiz » Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:49 pm

Has anyone ever heard of were the world mine?
"Dance on, lads, you're young; I was once."
Old manx sailor, Moby dick
User avatar
intowiz
The Cat's Pajamas !!
 
Posts: 1471
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:43 am

Postby tears_on_a_pillow » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:32 pm

I am going to use the word Queer cos it is easier for me when my head isn't thinking overly much ....

I personally believe someone is born Queer.

Sorry can't expand as head isn't functoning very well at the moment.

Lea
xox
tears_on_a_pillow
The Cat's Pajamas !!
 
Posts: 1460
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:08 pm
Location: Leeds

Postby Spoon » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:47 pm

Hmm, I think queer might complicate things further. As a theory 'queer' is based on post modern theory and says that without an input from society you can't define as anything at all.

So, queer is quite a reactionary thing. You define as queer as a reaction to a heterosexist society - it's acknowledging diversity, so someone who would otherwise define themselves as heterosexual could also legitimately define themselves as queer - by acknowledging that there are no polarised ends to gender or sexuality and therefore acknowledging that homo/hetro/bi only exist as constructs within society. It's a way of challenging homophobia, transphobia, sexism and to some degree racism and disablism by means of acknowledging that we are all diverse and therefore blurring boundaries and categories because people naturally create a hierarchy of categories and identities (based on their own experiences) which ultimately leads to discrimination.
Spoon
Mega Poster
 
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:39 pm
Location: London

Postby tears_on_a_pillow » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:42 pm

Elmo I was using the word Queer instead of what in time I am sure will become known as the Alphabet Soup of Sexuality and Gender Definement.
tears_on_a_pillow
The Cat's Pajamas !!
 
Posts: 1460
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:08 pm
Location: Leeds

PreviousNext

Return to Debate Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron