Abortion

Feel free to debate any issues you wish here. Warning: The topics discussed and their content may on occassion offend some.

Do you agree with abortion

Yes
4
10%
No
15
37%
Is up to individual
20
49%
Don't really know
2
5%
 
Total votes : 41

Re: Abortion

Postby Xenavire » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:29 am

chocolatefudgecake wrote:I'm not sure if i agree with this or not - how do you know what the animal wants?

Well by merit of instict alone, no animal wants to die. They all try to survive, and its something they dont try to stop. I do agree we cant know what they want, but how often do you see a pet trying to commit suicide? An animal could manage it... Its not like a suffering dog cant sniff out something dangerous and try to eat it, or use a chain/leash to strangle itself... The only times you see an example of these is because of an owners mistake, or similar.

I know several places who have put down animals for simply not being homed fast enough (although its partly the fault of government funding not being applicable to the places that instead rely on charity) and I can tell you right now thats unfair. Some of these animals have been found roaming wild on farms or even in town, turning up for meals from kind people... They arent sick, they arent hurting anyone, and the are capable of taking care of themselves or the most part, so why do we choose death for them?

Its murder isnt it? Well we have no qualms over ending a humans life, and scienifically speaking, an unborn baby (say around 3-5 months) has less functionality than your average goldfish. (Not to be offensive of anything, but goldfish do have a thought process, however limited it is)
Not to suggest a baby is less importnt than an animal, but sometimes its disgusting to say human life has more value than animal life. All life is that; life. If you can happily end one life, why not another?

This of course isnt my whole basis on why abortions should be allowed... Its up to the mother whether or not to have the baby... Sometimes its no-ones fault, contraceptives fail, and vasectomies dont always make it 100% safe either.

Lots of reasons exist fr hving an abortion. Underage girls who have consented to sex shouldnt have to keep a baby... Its oten too hard for them to even cope the pregnancy, let alne having a child. Rape is very painful, and any child born rom this could end up abused by a traumatised mother. Peoples cheat on thier spouses... The list goes on, and some are more awful than the thought of abortion in my opinion.

I would never dream of forcing an abortion on anyone... I think an unborn child has the rights of a puppy... (well in my head they are rights) To be loved, cared for, given sheler, and taught things to make its life more enoyable. Not to say a baby is a pet, but it has the right to that love etc etc... Theres stories of one amily who put theier baby in the drier and turned it on to block out the poor girls screams... An abortion there would have saved a LOT of grief to all involved...

An alternative to abortion has been offered in adoption, but those children are not assured happy lives... far from it, some of those children are alone most of thier lives, with only fellow "Adoptees" like orphans and such... Misery might love company, bt it doesnt bode well for a full life.

If abortion were legal my mother could have skipped having me... She could have had a much more full life... as it is, dealing with me has only left her with issues she cant deal with, very little income, and no friends. I dont feel happy about being born very often... Some other people might feel the same as me, I dont know.

Long story short... Animals get treated badly while humans get so mollycoddled that its illegal to choose wether to hve a kid or not.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Dan » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:03 pm

I think if someone is considering an abortion then they should not be prevented from doing so. If that child is born into a family that don't want it then it's going to grow up in a really horrible atmosphere. I voted yes.
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Re: Abortion

Postby C » Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:44 am

I don't think that I personally could ever have an abortion but I do not oppose it.

I think in some cases (especially with women who have been raped) it can be appropriate. Although it shouldn't be taken lightly, some people may be in a situation where they don't feel ready to care for a child. If you know that you are unready to care for a baby, you are not financially or emotionally secure enough then abortion may feel like the only choice. There's adoption, of course, but then you have to go through pregnancy, your body changing, feeling ill all the time, getting bigger, and then the traumatic, painful experience of childbirth and seeing the baby, all the while knowing that you will not keep it. Ironically, some of the people who are strongly against abortion also seem to be very anti single/teen parenthood/unmarried parents as well.

Having said all this, I don't think that I myself could ever bring myself to have an abortion. I also think that sometimes the potential father of the child should have more control as the baby would be theirs as well (but then I also think it's terrible that fathers have no legal reponsibility even when the child is born unless they are married to the mother or have their name on the child's birth certificate, I think they should get it automatically).

Another important factor is the legal limit for abortion - in the UK abortion is legal under 24 weeks, providing that two doctors agree that having the baby would harm the mothers physical or mental health or the physical or mental health of the children the mother already has (unless two doctors agree that abortion is necessary to save the mothers life/prevent serious harm to the mother ort baby, in which case abortion is legal at any time in pregnancy). Most pregnancies last 40 weeks and 24 weeks is over half of this time. I have a seven-month-old baby brother born at 27 weeks, just three weeks after the legal limit for abortion. He was tiny and had to stay in intensive care for over ten weeks but he was always very alert; responding and moving and everything. I know it's rare, but some babies have been born even more premature and survived and done well. Maybe the legal limit for abortion should be lowered to a stage where the baby cannot realistically be expected to survive outside of the womb, say fifteen weeks.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Brian » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:45 pm

C wrote:Another important factor is the legal limit for abortion - in the UK abortion is legal under 24 weeks, providing that two doctors agree that having the baby would harm the mothers physical or mental health or the physical or mental health of the children the mother already has (unless two doctors agree that abortion is necessary to save the mothers life/prevent serious harm to the mother ort baby, in which case abortion is legal at any time in pregnancy).


The 2 doctors part I don't get because I hear of people from Ireland going over to England, Scotland and Wales to have abortions and I can't see them going to 2 doctors.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Steph » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:14 pm

The 2 doctors part is true-although the procedure is carried out by solely one abortionist, legally the request or an abortion has to be signed by 2 doctors. There have been cases where abortionists have been prosecuted for aborting foetuses when the request form had only one signature as it's illegal to do so.
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Re: Abortion

Postby parnassus » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:21 am

Steph wrote:The 2 doctors part is true-although the procedure is carried out by solely one abortionist, legally the request or an abortion has to be signed by 2 doctors. There have been cases where abortionists have been prosecuted for aborting foetuses when the request form had only one signature as it's illegal to do so.


There is a way round it, Steph. Irish women who travel over here to have abortions obviously can't get them on the NHS, so they go to private providers such as Marie Stopes International and the British Pregnancy Advisory Service. Two doctors who work for MSI or BPAS will sign the recommendation, usually on the grounds that going ahead with the pregnancy would damage the woman's mental health. It's the easiest way to get round the law as it is impossible to demonstrate conclusively that any pregnancy wouldn't result in mental ill health.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Steph » Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:32 pm

Oh right-I didn't realise that.
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Re: Abortion

Postby babooshka2002 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:22 pm

It's very peculiar that the options for the poll are yes, no, personal choice and don't know.

What is the yes option for?

Some people who are against abortion believe that people who support the choice of women to have them are therefore "pro-abortion". I can assure them that nobody is pro-abortion. That viewpoint doesn't exist. It's pro-choice, and women who are that (like me) would fight just as hard against a woman being pressured into having an abortion she didn't want as they would against a woman being pressured into carrying a child she didn't want to be carrying.

For me, it's about personal choice of the woman, whatever that choice is.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Cynamon » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:21 pm

I'm pro-choice.

Abortion is a horrible thing, realistically. But, I don't believe it can be just judged as "good and evil". I think each individual situation has to be looked at.

Saying that, I don't believe it's right of people to use abortion as contraception, which some people do. I know someone that had an abortion and at the clinic she went too, there were women (mostly prostitutes) who were regulars at the clinic.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Page » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:30 pm

I believe that abortion is wrong because it directly and irrevocably impacts another life. Most people would agree that you should be free to do whatever you want to your own body/life as long as you have to live with the consequences of your actions. That is what freedom is. People who use abortion as a form of casual birth control have no sense of reponsibility because they live the way they want and then conveniently rid themselves of the consequences. If someone wants to live that way and be overly promiscuous then that's their business, but they also have an ethical responsibility to make sure their actions never affect anyone else. (like getting themselves sterilized first)

An unborn child (or fetus, or whatever you want to call it) is distinctly separate from the mother, yet it has no say in its own survival in those instances or even in the life it is born into. Would you enjoy being the child of someone who would have disposed of you just because you were inconvenient? Even a child born out of rape (an innocent life) shouldn't have to die because of what its father did. It's easy to be pro-choice when you're not the one being aborted.

In the same way, I have problems understanding the people who oppose the death penalty for people who have been proven in a court of law to have committed heinous crimes like murder and yet see nothing wrong with terminating the innocent life of an unborn child. (who had no one to advocate for them like the criminal did) Is an unborn child worth less than a criminal is? Is guilty life worth more than innocent life?
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Re: Abortion

Postby C » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:18 pm

Page wrote:People who use abortion as a form of casual birth control have no sense of reponsibility because they live the way they want and then conveniently rid themselves of the consequences. If someone wants to live that way and be overly promiscuous then that's their business, but they also have an ethical responsibility to make sure their actions never affect anyone else. (like getting themselves sterilized first)


I agree that abortion should not be used as a form of birth control... but it may be more damaging to have a baby you don't want and cannot care for than to abort it.

Page wrote:An unborn child (or fetus, or whatever you want to call it) is distinctly separate from the mother, yet it has no say in its own survival in those instances or even in the life it is born into. Would you enjoy being the child of someone who would have disposed of you just because you were inconvenient? Even a child born out of rape (an innocent life) shouldn't have to die because of what its father did. It's easy to be pro-choice when you're not the one being aborted.


'Would you enjoy being the child of someone who would have disposed of you just because you were inconvenient?' But if the fetus is aborted they will not survive to become that child, whereas if someone wants an abortion but doesn't have one then that baby becomes 'the child of someone who would have disposed of you [them] just because you [they] were inconvienient. I accept that people may change their mind and someone who at first did not want their baby may come round to the idea and love them once their born, despite wanting a termination at first. But this is not always the case.

Page wrote:In the same way, I have problems understanding the people who oppose the death penalty for people who have been proven in a court of law to have committed heinous crimes like murder and yet see nothing wrong with terminating the innocent life of an unborn child. (who had no one to advocate for them like the criminal did) Is an unborn child worth less than a criminal is? Is guilty life worth more than innocent life?


I am not strongly pro or anti abortion, although I am more pro abortion than anti but don't think I could abort my own baby. But I do strongly oppose the death penalty for three main reasons:

1. Even if someone is found guilty in court they may still be completely innocent. Think mothers like Sally Clarke, who were convicted of smothering their babies then later released. Even if someone is guilty then what exactly constuties a 'henious crime like murder'? The beaten wife who snaps and kills her husband? The mother who murders the man who raped her child?
2. In some cases, life imprisonment can be seen as worse than death, which is over quickly. Here some may argue that 'life' does not always mean life, people get let out early, etc. I agree that life should really mean life, unless proven guilty.
3. I just think there's something wrong with killing people... in fact there's something terribly ironic about saying that murder is wrong and thought shalt not kill... and then killing yourself!

Terminating the life of a seven-week old fetus, though unpleasant to think about, is surely better than murdering the seven-year-old child you were never able to love.
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