Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Remus » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:44 pm

Do not bring culture into this because it stands for nothing. We all choose to believe in what we want. I have quite a few Americans friends and some of them don't believe in hunting. I'm British so am I suppose to support fox hunting? Never. We are all human at the end of the day and we have our own minds so regardless of where we live, we decide what we believe for ourselves.

I'm not going to comment on the whole gun issue because if I do this debate will go spin off into new realm.

And no, I won't get over my opinion because somehow I think if I bowed down and supported hunting for any other reason than food, I wouldn't last that long in the career I am in now. Correction, to you it's pest control but to me and thousands of other people is nothing more that pure barbaric killing.

Yes but that doesn't make it right. Animals attack and kill humans for two pure reasons, one for food and two to defend themselves, their territory or their offspring. Humans kill for all sort of warped reasons, the worst being because people find it fun which is just twisted. Humans kill because we can, because we feel superior and feel we have the
right which is just wrong.

I have to say this but what the hell was the relevance of that but to answer your question, yes it would be barbaric but funny because it would serve the dumbasses right for trying to injure one another in the first place.

Page and Brian can I ask, do you have pets?
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Brian » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:05 pm

Remus wrote:Do not bring culture into this because it stands for nothing. We all choose to believe in what we want. I have quite a few Americans friends and some of them don't believe in hunting. I'm British so am I suppose to support fox hunting? Never. We are all human at the end of the day and we have our own minds so regardless of where we live, we decide what we believe for ourselves.


The americans love hunting and if you go to america you will see for yourself

Remus wrote:I'm not going to comment on the whole gun issue because if I do this debate will go spin off into new realm.


Please do because it is apart of the debate

Remus wrote:And no, I won't get over my opinion because somehow I think if I bowed down and supported hunting for any other reason than food, I wouldn't last that long in the career I am in now. Correction, to you it's pest control but to me and thousands of other people is nothing more that pure barbaric killing.

Yes but that doesn't make it right. Animals attack and kill humans for two pure reasons, one for food and two to defend themselves, their territory or their offspring. Humans kill for all sort of warped reasons, the worst being because people find it fun which is just twisted. Humans kill because we can, because we feel superior and feel we have the
right which is just wrong.


What ever, not wasting my time responding to such an over exaggerated response

Remus wrote:Brian can I ask, do you have pets?


NO, Pets are for losers that have given up finding love in humans [the only exception is elderly people]
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Steph » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:55 pm

I don't think that's true at all, Brian. Pets are just lovely to have around-it doesn't mean that every single person who owns one is lonely and hates people. If you take that generalised belief to its logical conclusion, then presumably you would never want a girlfriend who owns pets because you would think she has given up on love from humans. If this was the case, our population would be less than half of what it is now-it makes no sense whatsoever!
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Remus » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:16 pm

Brian wrote:What ever, not wasting my time responding to such an over exaggerated response


Brian, this board is meant to be debating. If you can't be bother to debate properly, just don't post instead of posting something like "whatever" because it's childish and disrespectful.

Brian wrote:NO, Pets are for losers that have given up finding love in humans [the only exception is elderly people]


Just as I suspected, you're not an animal fan. Pets are great because they provide us with comfort and joy when we feel low. Sometimes we need that because sometimes people we love such as family and friends can't be there an exact time. Now maybe before you posted something like that, you might of considered the feelings of members on this forum because I know at least 10 of us have pets. So are you saying that me and the others are going to single for life just because we have pets?

Personally there is not one girl I know who doesn't own a pet so going on what Steph's said if we follow your logic, mankind would be quite lower in numbers right now.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Brian » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:24 am

Remus wrote:Brian, this board is meant to be debating. If you can't be bother to debate properly, just don't post instead of posting something like "whatever" because it's childish and disrespectful.


Barbaric is chopping all an animals legs off while it is still alive and then killing it or on the lines of that not shooting an animal once and letting it die. That is response is extremely exaggerated and why I have to respond to such an exaggerated comment the second time amazes me.

Remus wrote:Just as I suspected, you're not an animal fan. Pets are great because they provide us with comfort and joy when we feel low. Sometimes we need that because sometimes people we love such as family and friends can't be there an exact time. Now maybe before you posted something like that, you might of considered the feelings of members on this forum because I know at least 10 of us have pets. So are you saying that me and the others are going to single for life just because we have pets?


I don't need to read this crap from an animal lover who is giving his opinion about how great pets are when previously I said that pets are for losers that cant find love with humans. Im not going to change my mind in the space of two hours.

Also I will respond to Steph's later but I will not in this response because you exaggerated it like you have in previous posts in this debate.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Dan » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:40 am

I have to side with Remus on this one. Quite passionately in fact.

We're all animals, structurally humans do not stand out particularly unique and it is unjustifiable to kill an animal for any reason other than to live.

It's healthier to live as a vegetarian, it's more sustainable and it's less cruel. Vegetarianism is almost guaranteed to become commonplace in my lifetime as the world realises a predominantly carnivourous population is not sustainable.

I myself eat meat, I eat a reasonable amount and it'd be a lie to say I did not enjoy the taste, but the slaughter of some animals is incredibly cruel, fox hunting is undeniably evil and monstrous and personally I cannot justify it any more than I can justify Hitler's extreme emnity towards the Jewish population.

Brian, your views are incredibly stubborn and are presented in a very offensive manner. Debating is futile if your opinion cannot change whatsoever.

Debating a point strongly is only important when there are very obvious flaws in the arguments against and this allows these flaws to be shown up. In my debate about the legality about Cannabis I aimed to educate people about the health risks (or lack of) and the addictive potential. I did not say that I believed Cannabis should be legal at any point (although I do believe it should be) and if I did say this in an intellectual environment with energy (which I lack now), I'd back it up with facts.

What makes people lonely if they like pets? I happen to adore dogs, I love how they love me for just being around. You may say it's selfish but dogs truly are happier with good carers than in the wild.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Brian » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:06 am

Dan wrote:I have to side with Remus on this one. Quite passionately in fact.


No way, we lost respect for each other so I wouldn't have expected you to agree with me even if the post was your opinion.

Dan wrote: We're all animals, structurally humans do not stand out particularly unique and it is unjustifiable to kill an animal for any reason other than to live.


Maybe so but its pest control of a specie that is potentially growing out of control

Dan wrote:It's healthier to live as a vegetarian, it's more sustainable and it's less cruel. Vegetarianism is almost guaranteed to become commonplace in my lifetime as the world realises a predominantly carnivourous population is not sustainable.


No, it isn't because you are depriving your body of proteins and red blood cells found in meat.

[quote=Dan] I myself eat meat, I eat a reasonable amount and it'd be a lie to say I did not enjoy the taste, but the slaughter of some animals is incredibly cruel, fox hunting is undeniably evil and monstrous and personally I cannot justify it any more than I can justify Hitler's extreme emnity towards the Jewish population.[/quote]

Killing animals is genocide WTF

Dan wrote:Brian, your views are incredibly stubborn and are presented in a very offensive manner. Debating is futile if your opinion cannot change whatsoever.


Fair enough you are entitled to your opinion. I am not going to read a piece wrote by an animal lover saying how great and wonderful pets are and then expect my mind to be changed. A neutral stand point maybe.

Dan wrote:Debating a point strongly is only important when there are very obvious flaws in the arguments against and this allows these flaws to be shown up. In my debate about the legality about Cannabis I aimed to educate people about the health risks (or lack of) and the addictive potential. I did not say that I believed Cannabis should be legal at any point (although I do believe it should be) and if I did say this in an intellectual environment with energy (which I lack now), I'd back it up with facts.


What I'm going to bother my arse and look up facts why hunting is important for animal control and get no results because some unfortunate american living in one of the sparsely states of America forgot to count how many dear there where in the state. Wake up and get back on topic aswell before we have another war like we had because of the homosexuality thread.

Dan wrote:What makes people lonely if they like pets? I happen to adore dogs, I love how they love me for just being around. You may say it's selfish but dogs truly are happier with good carers than in the wild.


Your opinion is your opinion and I don't care if you change it or not from reading this thread.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Dan » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:27 pm

Brian wrote:
Dan wrote:It's healthier to live as a vegetarian, it's more sustainable and it's less cruel. Vegetarianism is almost guaranteed to become commonplace in my lifetime as the world realises a predominantly carnivourous population is not sustainable.


No, it isn't because you are depriving your body of proteins and red blood cells found in meat.


This is incorrect. Proteins can be found in all sorts of vegetables. I can't believe you think it's less healthy to be vegetarian, that's simply not true. Also, I don't know what this red blood cell crap is about. Are you saying drinking blood is good for you?

Brian wrote:
Dan wrote: I myself eat meat, I eat a reasonable amount and it'd be a lie to say I did not enjoy the taste, but the slaughter of some animals is incredibly cruel, fox hunting is undeniably evil and monstrous and personally I cannot justify it any more than I can justify Hitler's extreme emnity towards the Jewish population.


Killing animals is genocide WTF



If you think about it, the mass killing of a human population is genocide, why is the mass killing of an animal population not genocide?
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Brian » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:44 pm

Dan wrote:This is incorrect. Proteins can be found in all sorts of vegetables. I can't believe you think it's less healthy to be vegetarian, that's simply not true. Also, I don't know what this red blood cell crap is about. Are you saying drinking blood is good for you?


Great comeback because you clearly haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

Dan wrote:If you think about it, the mass killing of a human population is genocide, why is the mass killing of an animal population not genocide?


Called animal control.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Dan » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:26 pm

Brian wrote:
Dan wrote:This is incorrect. Proteins can be found in all sorts of vegetables. I can't believe you think it's less healthy to be vegetarian, that's simply not true. Also, I don't know what this red blood cell crap is about. Are you saying drinking blood is good for you?


Great comeback because you clearly haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

Dan wrote:If you think about it, the mass killing of a human population is genocide, why is the mass killing of an animal population not genocide?


Called animal control.


Seriously, look up vegetarianism. It can be perfectly healthy to live as a vegetarian and it's a well-known fact that red meat is bad for you and that a low calorie diet is healthier than a recommended one.

Also, killing foxes is not animal control, it's done for pleasure. Animal control is bringing in cane toads to quell an animal that eats plants, and then realising you fucked up and bringing in larger animals to kill them. The amount of failed animal control the world has partaken in is mind boggling.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Remus » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:51 pm

Brian wrote:Barbaric is chopping all an animals legs off while it is still alive and then killing it or on the lines of that not shooting an animal once and letting it die. That is response is extremely exaggerated and why I have to respond to such an exaggerated comment the second time amazes me.


What someone finds barbaric may be completely different for someone else. I personally find anything to do with animal cruelty barbaric.

Brian wrote:I don't need to read this crap from an animal lover who is giving his opinion about how great pets are when previously I said that pets are for losers that cant find love with humans. Im not going to change my mind in the space of two hours.


Brian, please do not refer to my opinions crap. I have seen you do this before on past topics and it is rude and offensive. I wouldn't do it to your opinions so don't to it to mine or anybody else. And for the record, I don't expect you to change your mind. I never do when it comes to animal haters.

Thanks Dan for your support on this. There is not a lot of topics I get heated on but when it comes to animals, anything goes.

As Dan said, it is healthier to be a vegetarian. To be fair, vegetarians do have more chance of getting ill due to the lack of vitamins in meat but that easy to fix, all they have to got to do is to take a vitamin supplement and done. Meat eaters that constant eat meat are unhealthy and heading for an earlier grave espeically red meat eaters. Red meat is very high in saturated fat and cholesterol which is not good for you.

Brian wrote:No way, we lost respect for each other so I wouldn't have expected you to agree with me even if the post was your opinion.


I can't help but lose respect for people who would shoot an animal without thinking twice about it. But at the end of the day, if I disagree with you, I leave my opinion on this board and I don't expect it to crop up on any other boards expect this one.

Brian wrote:Maybe so but its pest control of a specie that is potentially growing out of control


Listen to me, you can't get overpopulation because it just doesn't work. The species hits that critcial mark and then it's not longer sustainable and the population drops until it reaches a safe sustainable level again. It's the natural cycle, it sort itself out. It is taking place right now out there in the wilderness, there is no need for us to get involved. Pest control is things like ants trying to invade your sugar jar or wasps take up a nest in your home because that's when the animal has enter your environment. The only pest in your scenario is you walking into the animal environment trying to kill it. Also by hunting of one species, you are causing a chain reaction because other species such as prey and predators of that species get affected by it. Plants as well if it's a grazer/pollinator. Hunting for stupid reasons such as "pest control" as you put it can just mess with whole eco-systems. It's a dangerous game.

Brian wrote:Killing animals is genocide WTF


Killing is genocide, full stop. Regardless of species, gender, age, characteristics etc it is still genocide.

Brian wrote:Wake up and get back on topic aswell before we have another war like we had because of the homosexuality thread.


Well if it blow up like that thread which I'm sure many people don't want including myself, maybe we should just not have debates on here if every debate on here is going to end up upsetting people madly.

Personally though I just find it shocking that here we are in the 21st century and yet we still hunt and we still treat animals like crap. Fair enough, Brian if you want think of humans as the superior species so why don't we prove it and show some mercy and help these species out.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby parnassus » Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:44 pm

Brian wrote:
Remus wrote:And no, I won't get over my opinion because somehow I think if I bowed down and supported hunting for any other reason than food, I wouldn't last that long in the career I am in now. Correction, to you it's pest control but to me and thousands of other people is nothing more that pure barbaric killing.

Yes but that doesn't make it right. Animals attack and kill humans for two pure reasons, one for food and two to defend themselves, their territory or their offspring. Humans kill for all sort of warped reasons, the worst being because people find it fun which is just twisted. Humans kill because we can, because we feel superior and feel we have the
right which is just wrong.


What ever, not wasting my time responding to such an over exaggerated response


Remus is obviously passionate about animal welfare, but I don't see anything in his post that is exaggerated. You have decided that it's exaggerated because his definition of barbarism is different from yours. It would be more polite (and more interesting as a discussion) if you were to simply explain how you understand barbarism and why you think his definition is wrong rather than making scathing remarks about his argument.

Personally I don't think animals are on an equality with humans, but I can see a logical flaw in your argument straight out. First of all, you defend the hunting of animals by remarking that animals kill people in their turn. ("Humans and animals have been killing or kicking the s**t out each other for sport for thousands of years.") For the two things to be equivalent, animals would have to have the same intellect and sense of morality as human beings, which they clearly don't. Animals are amoral; they do not have the capacity to see killing a human as right or wrong. If you're going to make out that an animal killing a human is morally equivalent to a human killing an animal, as though the former can justify the latter, you have to presume a very high level of understanding on the part of the animal. If you're going to do this, you can't contradict yourself later on by saying that a mass killing of humans by humans is genocide whereas a mass killing of animals by humans is not. Moral equivalency works both ways.

I could have pointed this out by quoting your post and snapping, "I'm not going to respond to such illogical nonsense." It would have been very rude and unfair to you if I had, and it would have added nothing to the debate. Please stop making such rude rejoinders to people. It serves no purpose except to get people irritated and maybe upset, and I hope you don't want that.

Brian can I ask, do you have pets?

NO, Pets are for losers that have given up finding love in humans [the only exception is elderly people]


This is either proof that most people on DT are losers or another sign of faulty logic. Either way, it's an example of the rudeness that I'm talking about. It's especially insensitive given the nature of this forum. While owning a pet and having human friendships are not mutually exclusive, people who have been bullied or have trouble making friends as a result of their dyspraxia often find that a pet is a great solace. One regular user of this forum used to refer to her cat as her best friend; the only thing that prevented her from committing suicide during a very painful and frightening time in her life was the thought that if she died the cat would have no one to take care of her. Perhaps this is an example of what you would call a loser. It's what I would call courage and making the best of a difficult situation.

A better measure of your capacity to give and receive human love is not whether you keep a pet, but how you treat other humans. Perhaps something worth thinking about.
"This above all, to thine own self be true." - Polonius, Hamlet.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby k9ruby » Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:39 pm

OK. Here is my 2 p.

I am not vegetarian, BUT I am an animal lover. I do think it is possible for you to be both.

Certain animals are a natural part of the food chain. Therefore, as long as they are killed humanly and have a nice life, that should be acceptable. The RSPCA supports this with their 'freedom food' scheme, and have done alot for lots of animal issues.

Even as a student with a limited budget, I never buy stuff that isn't free range. I also do not agree with the way Halal (sp?) meat is slaughtered, as I think the animal should be shocked/shot in a humane manner that means the death is instantaneous.

I know some users may disagree with my opinion, but I think the Halal way of slaughter, excuse me for any ignorance about the method, but I think slitting a neck of an animal and waiting until every drop of blood has spurted out is cruel, as it allows a slow painful death, which should never be acceptable, and I think should be a form of animal cruelty. Same with battery hens- they spend their lives basically ingrained in their feaces which burns the skin and mats the feathers, let alone must be a horrible smell.

I think people who expect cats and dogs to lead vegetarian lifestyles should be done for animal cruelty and malnutrition- unless you have consulted a vet on nutrition balancing, you are probably letting your dog miss out on vital nutrients. For cats, I have heard it is simply impossible and should not be tried, as they need this food in their diet.

If we were to apply the theory of not killing any living thing for human consumption- why not extend it to plants? insects? dust mites? They are living organisms too. The reality is that people are always going to eat meat whether people like it or not, but if they do so they should do it in the most humane way possible.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby k9ruby » Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:47 pm

What makes people lonely if they like pets? I happen to adore dogs, I love how they love me for just being around. You may say it's selfish but dogs truly are happier with good carers than in the wild.


I half and half agree.

Domesticated dogs are eternal puppies, and have been used to not having to fend for themselves since day one- and have had this ability bred out of them over generations. There is scientific proof of this happening, as wolves have larger brains than even the largest of domestic dogs. However, I am not saying adopt a wolf! On the other hand, I think it important for dog owners to try and replicate the natural pack structure you would get in the wild as much as possible within their family- the dog will be happier, more co-operative and stable as a result.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Remus » Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:47 pm

parnassus wrote: Remus is obviously passionate about animal welfare, but I don't see anything in his post that is exaggerated.


Thanks for the support, Vicky. It is sort of my job though to be passionate about animal welfare though. :P

parnassus wrote: Personally I don't think animals are on an equality with humans, but I can see a logical flaw in your argument straight out.


I sort of agree and disagree. I think on certain levels we are the higher species and then on other levels we the lowest.

parnassus wrote: One regular user of this forum used to refer to her cat as her best friend; the only thing that prevented her from committing suicide during a very painful and frightening time in her life was the thought that if she died the cat would have no one to take care of her. Perhaps this is an example of what you would call a loser. It's what I would call courage and making the best of a difficult situation.


I certainly agree with this. I think pets for most people are a lifeline for comfort and company. When I was back at Ninestiles and going through that rough time, it was just nice to come home to my lovely cat, Tommy, bless his soul. He was a great comfort and without him, I dread to think what would of happened. It's been proved that people who owns dogs are a lot less stressed than people who don't. Listening to a cat purring has been know to low blood pressure, pets do an awful lot for us and it's only fair if we look after them back. Take sniffer dogs, without them, the drug trade would be a lot more higher.

k9ruby wrote: I know some users may disagree with my opinion, but I think the Halal way of slaughter


I agree with you Ruby, Halal is the worst way. It is the most unhumane way of killing. In animal wefare, we had to watch some really awful videos and believe me, it was uncomfortable viewing. In one scene, this man hung this pig up alive and slit its throat and it start wriggling around. I don't know how but it manage to get out of the chains and fall on the floor and it was just rolling around in its blood until it stop. To this day, that is the most horrible thing I have ever witnessed in my life, the worst thing was the squealing, the noise was just chilling. I personally think the most humane way of killing is a shot to the head, it's a instant kill. I don't thinking shocking is that humane because in several cases, they shock repeated until the animal is dead which is not pleasant. Of course, the most humane ways are lethal injection or gas but then the meat wouldn't be fit for human consumption.

k9ruby wrote: I think people who expect cats and dogs to lead vegetarian lifestyles should be done for animal cruelty and malnutrition- unless you have consulted a vet on nutrition balancing, you are probably letting your dog miss out on vital nutrients. For cats, I have heard it is simply impossible and should not be tried, as they need this food in their diet.


I agree with this also. Not so much for dogs but for cats, they are pure carnivores and it is essential that they eat meat because they need an amino acid called Taurine. Taurine is essential in cats because it plays a big role in vision and maintaince of the cat's retina. Without it, the cat's retina slowly degenerates and eventually the cat will go blind. It can also lead to death as taurine is linked to the heart and without it increases the risk of heart failure and also a lack of taurine can make a cat infertile or cause defects in kittens.

k9ruby wrote: If we were to apply the theory of not killing any living thing for human consumption- why not extend it to plants? insects? dust mites?


If we did that, then I think we would be pretty much screwed. I think what makes it easier for us to accept eating vegetables and plants is they haven't been proved to have emotional input. Animals like mammals and birds, it has been proved that they possess emotions like us but in a more simple format. They can feel fear and pain just like us where animals such an invertebrates don't have that. Don't ask me how that work because I haven't got a clue. If you own a snake, it literally can't tell the difference between you and its food where a dog or a cat can.
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