Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Dan » Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:51 pm

Heh Taurine is that thing in energy drinks. If you give them lucozade do they get super laser eyes?

Warning, take my post only 50% seriously.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby k9ruby » Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:55 pm

Remus, I completely agree with you on every level on the above post. The mention of the video makes me shudder, I think I would of had to leave the room- and I have seen programmes on animals being killed in a humane way. Nice to know that there is one person that is sane in my book :P (No offense to the veggies that are because of animal rights issues...oh crap I've dug a hole haven't I?!)
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Brian » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:12 pm

Remus wrote:What someone finds barbaric may be completely different for someone else. I personally find anything to do with animal cruelty barbaric.


Of course you would your doing a bloody degree

Remus wrote:Brian, please do not refer to my opinions crap. I have seen you do this before on past topics and it is rude and offensive. I wouldn't do it to your opinions so don't to it to mine or anybody else.


You can if you want it wouldn't bother me in the slightest

Brian wrote:No way, we lost respect for each other so I wouldn't have expected you to agree with me even if the post was your opinion.

Remus wrote:I can't help but lose respect for people who would shoot an animal without thinking twice about it. But at the end of the day, if I disagree with you, I leave my opinion on this board and I don't expect it to crop up on any other boards expect this one


Intended at Dan because we don't see eye to eye with each other.

Remus wrote:Killing is genocide, full stop. Regardless of species, gender, age, characteristics etc it is still genocide.


No it isn't

k9ruby wrote:Certain animals are a natural part of the food chain. Therefore, as long as they are killed humanly and have a nice life, that should be acceptable. The RSPCA supports this with their 'freedom food' scheme, and have done alot for lots of animal issues.


Valid point and very concise which I accept because it is coming from a neutral stand point.

k9ruby wrote:I also do not agree with the way Halal (sp?) meat is slaughtered, as I think the animal should be shocked/shot in a humane manner that means the death is instantaneous.


As much as I hate the islam culture and the religion. I think that is a humane way of slaughter having viewed a slaughter in that way it doesn't look that cruel and people should read the guidelines before they judge that means of slaughter.

Dan wrote:Heh Taurine is that thing in energy drinks. If you give them lucozade do they get super laser eyes?

Warning, take my post only 50% seriously.


I never take your posts seriously.

Remus wrote:Do not bring culture into this because it stands for nothing. We all choose to believe in what we want. I have quite a few Americans friends and some of them don't believe in hunting. I'm British so am I suppose to support fox hunting? Never. We are all human at the end of the day and we have our own minds so regardless of where we live, we decide what we believe for ourselves.


Sorry didn't the British ban fox hunting so you are a British and because it is not in your culture to hunt you could care even though, it might be in another country's culture to hunt I have been to America and it is definitely in their country to hunt. Culture stands for alot things in everyday life, I made that point because you continually started criticising Page because he was saying how hunting is important and why it is needed to keep control of animals in his state Alabama in America. Also there is cultural gap because Alabama is a very pro hunting state because of the Red neck traditions in that State. Here in Ireland the slaughter of animals accounts for a massive stake in our economy so it is bloody justified to kill animals by whatever means possible because of the benefit to our economy. There I brought culture in an if you have an issue about it f**k off and do more research before you make such a ridiculous statement again.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Remus » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:42 pm

Dan wrote:Heh Taurine is that thing in energy drinks. If you give them lucozade do they get super laser eyes?

Warning, take my post only 50% seriously.


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These cats must of took some already! :lol: You should contact Lucozade about that actually, it would make a great advertising scheme, cats with laser eyes. On the downside though, it might make old ladies try and force Lucozade down their cat's throats. :?

Notice: This isn't serious, don't try this at home, kids! :P

k9ruby wrote:Remus, I completely agree with you on every level on the above post. The mention of the video makes me shudder, I think I would of had to leave the room- and I have seen programmes on animals being killed in a humane way. Nice to know that there is one person that is sane in my book :P (No offense to the veggies that are because of animal rights issues...oh crap I've dug a hole haven't I?!)


Our tutor Beth said we could leave the room if we need to and then went outside herself and left us to it! :lol: I just thought "that's real good!". A couple of girls left the room but me and James to sat right through it. It was really uncomfortable and heart-wrenching but we've got to get used to seeing like that in our field. Lol, I wouldn't worry about it.

Brian wrote: Of course you would your doing a bloody degree


Not just a degree, my entire career. Animal welfare, animal rights, animal conservation, anything to do with animals that is brought into this forum, I will be there defending my opinions and of course the animals and don't expect anything less from me.

Brian wrote: As much as I hate the islam culture and the religion. I think that is a humane way of slaughter having viewed a slaughter in that way it doesn't look that cruel and people should read the guidelines before they judge that means of slaughter.


The fact that you find that a humane way of killing worries me because I dread to think what you think is a inhumane way of killing.

Brian wrote:I never take your posts seriously.


More rudeness. I take everybody posts on here seriously. Dan, Vicky, Steph, Ruby, Creative, everybody. Even yours. Well I did until you came on here and posts your opinion in such a rude and offensive manner. Now I'm find it difficult to take them seriously.

Brian wrote:Sorry didn't the British ban fox hunting so you are a British and because it is not in your culture to hunt you could care even though, it might be in another country's culture to hunt I have been to America and it is definitely in their country to hunt. Culture stands for alot things in everyday life, I made that point because you continually started criticising Page because he was saying how hunting is important and why it is needed to keep control of animals in his state Alabama in America. Also there is cultural gap because Alabama is a very pro hunting state because of the Red neck traditions in that State. Here in Ireland the slaughter of animals accounts for a massive stake in our economy so it is bloody justified to kill animals by whatever means possible because of the benefit to our economy. There I brought culture in an if you have an issue about it f**k off and do more research before you make such a ridiculous statement again.


Yes, we did but of course, it still goes on illegally and the law does nothing. The first guy who go caught doing illegal fox hunting got nothing more a pathetic £500 fine. I bet he just paid and did the same thing again. Forget culture, I'm British and I don't support fox hunting. If I was born in America, I wouldn't support hunting. If I was born in Japan, I wouldn't support whaling. Culture does not decide who are nor does it decide what we believe in, that is down to us. Me and Page were having a perfectly heated but civil debate, exactly how am I supposed to debate without criticising? To be honest, Brian, to me it looks like you are trying to turn this debate into some country vs country battle and it's not going to happen. Yes, I have issues with the American's way of life but I also have issues with my own country as well as other country that bring animal welfare into spotlight so basically everywhere. It's nothing personally, there is many things I love about America.

Ah, of course, it always boils down to money. The fact that you can justify killing thousands of innocent animals just for the sake of money, talk about shallow. When it comes to food, meat production is the cheaper compared to organic vegetables which costs a fortune so who cares about the consequences?

So yeah, I have an issue with it but no, I won't f*** off like you suggest and I would like to please refrain from using such language as the rest of have been mature enough not to.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby parnassus » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:56 pm

It seems that my earlier request for politeness has gone unnoticed.

I didn't ask for politeness just because I have a personal preference for it. I asked because it is very important to be polite if we're going to maintain the character of this forum. Kindness to other users - all users - is not an optional extra. It's obligatory, and it shouldn't be a painful obligation. Lots of people here have strong views on a variety of subjects, including me, but this doesn't usually lead to us being so aggressive. If you feel the need to be rude to someone else (no matter who they are or what you think of them personally) you should seriously question your motives for posting here.

I can count the times when I've had to lock threads on the fingers of one hand, and that's in five years of moderating DT. I don't want to add to that total. I am going to lock it temporarily to give people a chance to cool down. I will reopen it tomorrow.

Edit: I have reopened the thread, perhaps against my better judgement. If there is any more rudeness and aggression, it will be closed for good.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Page » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:07 pm

I was going to reply to this sooner but the thread got locked. Now that it's open again, I'll do my rebuttal.

Remus wrote:Do not bring culture into this because it stands for nothing. We all choose to believe in what we want. I have quite a few Americans friends and some of them don't believe in hunting. I'm British so am I suppose to support fox hunting?


Ok, I think I see where the problem is.

1. There is a huge cultural difference we have not addressed
2. You seem to be treating all forms of hunting the same.

On my first point, there are differences between the US and UK like I mentioned in the other thread. I'll have to ask you where your American friends hail from... various parts of the US are more open to these sorts of things than others. For instance, people on the east and west coasts tend to be fairly liberal with more tolerance of big government. This liberal tendency tends to become more pronounced the further north you go on either coast. The south (where I live) is fiercely independent, conservative, and we don't like being told what to do. The midwest is like the south for the most part but not quite to the same extent. I realize I'm generalizing somewhat but the overall trends I have presented for these areas is mostly accurate.

While a liberal city-dwelling person from California, New York, or Massachusetts may not approve of hunting, a rural conservative from Alabama, Iowa, or Wyoming may feel quite differently. The coasts are far more developed and urbanized so hunting is usually not even a factor in the lives of people there. Middle america has urban areas too but much more of it is undeveloped so hunting is far more common.

Now, not all forms of hunting are the same. What do you currently know about deer hunting? I would not consider hunting something unless I intend to eat it.

1. Foxes are not edible (as far as I know) Therefore, hunting them is purely for sport. On the other hand, both deer and geese are edible and hunting them serves multiple purposes (food, population control, and some sport) The difference is that sport is not a primary or sole motivation.

2. Foxes are a naturally occurring species in the UK (as far as I know) and are not invasive like the canadian geese I already mentioned.

3. I've not witnessed a fox hunt but I recall hearing about how dogs are used to drive the foxes while the hunters ride on horseback. (or that's at least how they used to do it) Dog-driving deer is illegal and you may not hunt deer while mounted or from a vehicle. It's a completely different situation. In deer hunting, you sit hidden in a blind and use an artificial deer decoy to lure a deer into range. There are similar rules for hunting waterfowl.

I'm not going to comment on the whole gun issue because if I do this debate will go spin off into new realm.


I'm fine with that.. we have another thread for that right now.


And no, I won't get over my opinion because somehow I think if I bowed down and supported hunting for any other reason than food, I wouldn't last that long in the career I am in now. Correction, to you it's pest control but to me and thousands of other people is nothing more that pure barbaric killing.


If I haven't been able to convince you with what I've said already, I doubt anything else I could add will change your mind.


Page and Brian can I ask, do you have pets?


I do, but I would not consider hunting them. There is a difference between feral and domesticated animals. You may as well ask me to hunt a cow in a pasture.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Remus » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:34 pm

I treat the majority of hunting the same. Killing is killing in my book regardless of species and how it is done.

Let me see, Krystal is from Texas, Will is in Louisiana, Leigh is in New York, Heather is from Utah and Ghost is from Florida. I believe culture has a certain influence on us but nothing more. I don't like being told what to do but I don't put that down to me just being a Brummie and where I live, I put it down to just because that's me. I believe that the hunting is a problem because many hunting families pass it down from generation to generation. See this:

http://www.myfirstdeerhunt.com/index.html

I shudder to think about parents giving this book to their like 6 year old because it's just warped. No wonder we have such an problem with the younger generation now if they are getting shown things like that.

I don't know a lot about deer hunting apart from that it's cruel and that hunters get some weird sense of achievement of sticking a dead deer's head on their mantlepiece.

Foxes are hunt here all in the name of sport but I would imagine, they could be edible and yes, the foxes are a native species here.

Page wrote: If I haven't been able to convince you with what I've said already, I doubt anything else I could add will change your mind.


That was actually aimed at Brian but yes, my opinion on hunting is one of those opinions you can never shift or change. And vice-versa, I don't expect you to change your views either.

Page wrote: There is a difference between feral and domesticated animals. You may as well ask me to hunt a cow in a pasture.


Ah but before there wasn't that difference and cats/dogs were just as wild as any other natural animal until we domesticated. What about people who have Canadian Geese as pets which they do?

Tell me Page, do you need to physically hunt? I can understand if you living in a cardboard box in the forest with no money. Fair enough. But if you can drive or walk to the local supermarket and pick up some meat there like the rest of us do, then you don't need to hunt at all.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Brian » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:36 pm

This is the Halal way of slaughtering animals which I personally feel isn't all that evil.

The animal must not be a forbidden substance as per the Quran.
The slaughter itself must be done by a sane (mentally competent) adult Muslim. Some Muslims also consider it acceptable to eat the meat slaughtered by "People of the Book" (Arabic: Ahl al-Kitāb, i.e, Christians and Jews‎) as stated in Surah Al-Maa’idah, Ayat 5. The name/praise of GOD Almighty must be read before sacrificing the animal. Therefore, since Christians do not read anything before slaughtering the animal, their food is not considered halal. (They used to sacrifice the animals while mentioning GOD Almighty's name/praise in the past.) Most Sunni Muslims do consider Kosher meat to be Halal, and this has been accepted since the times of Mohammed.

Several other conditions are also stated: the knife's blade should be extremely sharp yet not be sharpened in front of the animal, the animal must not be slaughtered in front of other animals, and the animal's eyes and ears must be checked to ensure its health and suitability for slaughter. If it is deemed to be healthy, it is given water to drink (to quench its thirst). The animal should then be stood to face the Qibla , and the actual slaughter can begin.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Steph » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:42 pm

I don't think that people are against the Halal method of slaughter for what they do before the slaughter, which is what your post is about. I think it's more the fact that it takes a long time for the slaughter to end because all the blood has to drain out and that a sharp knife is used rather than a swift bullet that is less painful and torturous for the animal.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Dan » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:46 pm

Brian wrote:This is the Halal way of slaughtering animals which I personally feel isn't all that evil.

The animal must not be a forbidden substance as per the Quran.
The slaughter itself must be done by a sane (mentally competent) adult Muslim. Some Muslims also consider it acceptable to eat the meat slaughtered by "People of the Book" (Arabic: Ahl al-Kitāb, i.e, Christians and Jews‎) as stated in Surah Al-Maa’idah, Ayat 5. The name/praise of GOD Almighty must be read before sacrificing the animal. Therefore, since Christians do not read anything before slaughtering the animal, their food is not considered halal. (They used to sacrifice the animals while mentioning GOD Almighty's name/praise in the past.) Most Sunni Muslims do consider Kosher meat to be Halal, and this has been accepted since the times of Mohammed.

Several other conditions are also stated: the knife's blade should be extremely sharp yet not be sharpened in front of the animal, the animal must not be slaughtered in front of other animals, and the animal's eyes and ears must be checked to ensure its health and suitability for slaughter. If it is deemed to be healthy, it is given water to drink (to quench its thirst). The animal should then be stood to face the Qibla , and the actual slaughter can begin.


I believe it's very evil. Leaving an animal to bleed out from the neck would cause a great deal of pain. To be honest, there's not a worse way to die that I can think of.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby parnassus » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:14 pm

It sounds painful, but it may not be the case. People who have nearly bled to death report that pain is superseded by dizziness that later melts into unconsciousness. It's not pleasant, but it's unlikely to be as painful as the methods used in abbatoirs, which are much more gruesome than that. Seeing a documentary about the methods employed in a typical abbatoir was enough to get me buying meat from ethical farms, even though the price means that I can't afford to eat it very often.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Remus » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:10 am

I agree with Dan, the Halal method is nothing more that pure evil. There is nothing holy about it whatsoever. It may not be physically painful but mentally, it must be torturing. Can you imagine have your throat slit and then having to just hang there knowing you couldn't do nothing and that Mr. Grim Reaper was heading your way? Torture, pure and simple.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Dan » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:36 pm

parnassus wrote:It sounds painful, but it may not be the case. People who have nearly bled to death report that pain is superseded by dizziness that later melts into unconsciousness. It's not pleasant, but it's unlikely to be as painful as the methods used in abbatoirs, which are much more gruesome than that. Seeing a documentary about the methods employed in a typical abbatoir was enough to get me buying meat from ethical farms, even though the price means that I can't afford to eat it very often.


Although classic slaughterhouses are not nice either, at least some effort is made to numb the animal before they are killed. I'd rather die after being prodded electrically than bleed out.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby Dino » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:35 am

Remus wrote: I
I agree with you Ruby, Halal is the worst way. It is the most unhumane way of killing. In animal wefare, we had to watch some really awful videos and believe me, it was uncomfortable viewing. In one scene, this man hung this pig up alive and slit its throat and it start wriggling around. I don't know how but it manage to get out of the chains and fall on the floor and it was just rolling around in its blood until it stop. To this day, that is the most horrible thing I have ever witnessed in my life, the worst thing was the squealing, the noise was just chilling.


You did not watch a video of Halal being performed if that video contained a pig. I was born and bought up in a country which has Islam as the majority religion (Bosnia and Herzegovina) and the consumption of pork is explicitly forbidden by the holy Quran. Eating pork is considered one of the most grave offences which a Muslim can commit. Thus no Muslim would ever kill a pig for the purpose of eating it, and you would never ever see pork sold in a Halal butcher's.

I'm not going to comment on the whole gun issue because if I do this debate will go spin off into new realm.

And no, I won't get over my opinion because somehow I think if I bowed down and supported hunting for any other reason than food, I wouldn't last that long in the career I am in now. Correction, to you it's pest control but to me and thousands of other people is nothing more that pure barbaric killing.

Yes but that doesn't make it right. Animals attack and kill humans for two pure reasons, one for food and two to defend themselves, their territory or their offspring. Humans kill for all sort of warped reasons, the worst being because people find it fun which is just twisted. Humans kill because we can, because we feel superior and feel we have the
right which is just wrong.
[/quote]

I have noticed that throughout this thread you have repeatedly dismissed America's gun and hunting culture as seemingly unimportant and that it doesn't have an influence. I assure you that on that point you are very badly misinformed. In the American Constitution (which is also taken very seriously in America) all people are given the "right to bear arms". This means that virtually all American citizens can purchase a firearm without any restrictions, and thus gun culture has always been deeply imbedded in Americans, and the issue of gun control is much more sensitive in the USA than in the UK, not least because the Constitution explicitly gives all citizens the right to bear arms.

This also directly links in with hunting, and hunting animals is deeply ingrained in American culture and has a huge influence on the American people and the amount of hunting that goes on in America. To say it doesn't shows that you are misinformed. Many Americans, especially those from Southern states such as Texas and Midwestern states such as Wyoming and Montana are taken on hunts by their parents and relatives at young ages, and they come into contact with guns and hunting very early in in life when they are small children, and many American families from these regions have been passionate hunters for many generations. Thus they are bought up with the notion that guns and hunting (and of course, killing) animals is perfectly normal and it is simply a way of life for them, and nothing will change their minds about it. And they will never understand why people such as yourself make such a huge fuss over hunting, because to them it is simply another hobby or tradition which they have no desire to relinquish and they have full intention of passing it onto future generations and teaching their own children to hunt and that hunting is normal and a way of life, as well as part of culture.

In addition, hunting receives huge support from the American public, and pressure groups such as the National Rifle Association have massive influence in this regard. The leader of the NRA famously said "If you want to take away my hunting rights and my rifle from me, you'l have to wrench it from my cold dead hands". When you consider the fact that the National Rifle Association and other similar groups have literally millions of members in them, you start to get an idea how deeply ingrained gun culture and hunting is in American society and culture. My Politics teacher was telling me about when they had a family friend's son from Montana come to visit them in England, and one of the first things he said to her was "So ma'am, where abouts do you go hunting then?" To him and many millions of other Americans, hunting is completely normal and it will stay that way in the foreseable future.

I also find it alarming how you say that you find no difference between culling animal populations because a particular species has gone rampant due to a lack of predators and killing animals to extinction. A species which has gone out of control because of their huge numbers poses major problems for the environment and for the population as a whole. For example, a huge population of deer which is out of control will consume plant and tree saplings en masse to the point that no vegetation can grow and there will not be enough food for all the deer, resulting in many of them suffering and dying slow and painful deaths. This means that other creatures who share the habitat will suffer and die as a result. Out of control animal species who's predators have been wiped out are a huge problem worldwide and are also a large environmental issue which poses a serious threat. I suggest that you read up on the subject a bit more and maybe then you would see the bigger picture rather than reffering to all killing as "barbaric killing". However, I am astonished that you have not explored these issues already seeing as you are on course which is supposed to teach you everything about animals.

Lastly, please don't claim that killing a certain number of animals from a large population is the same as genocide. I have personally witnessed the effects of genocide firsthand, including the fact that me and my entire family had to flee from our home due to genocide that was being committed, and I can tell you that the two things are worlds apart.
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Re: Vegitarianism And The Slaughter Of Animals For Human Use

Postby k9ruby » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:04 pm

I don't think that people are against the Halal method of slaughter for what they do before the slaughter, which is what your post is about. I think it's more the fact that it takes a long time for the slaughter to end because all the blood has to drain out and that a sharp knife is used rather than a swift bullet that is less painful and torturous for the animal.


This hits the nail on the head. :mrgreen:
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