The Pope's Visit

Feel free to debate any issues you wish here. Warning: The topics discussed and their content may on occassion offend some.

Should the Pope have been accepted into the UK?

Yes
8
32%
No
9
36%
Unsure
8
32%
 
Total votes : 25

The Pope's Visit

Postby DystantMind » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:21 am

What do you guys think of the Pope's visit?

Personally, I don't agree with most of the things he has been saying. It seems very biased agaisn't Atheists and makes out like Atheists are evil people who are trying to irradicate Christianity and destory their culture (maybe thats slightly hyperbolic). As an Atheist, I do not really care about converting people to Atheism; I believe they should make their own choice, and I believe that is what Science is really about. Also, I do not want to irradicate Christian Culture, as I am a Cultural Christian, which means I celebrate the Christian festivals without believing in the religous aspects of it.

This may sound controversial, but the way I see it is that Science gives people the choice to make up their own mind using evidence and education, whilst it seems religion tries to scare people into believing using the ideas of Heaven and Hell, by using well-worded speeches to try and convince the masses. Whilst you get people of religous belief journeying to attempt to convert people to their religion, Science only provides the evidence and facts and promotes free-thinking.

As I don't know everything about Christianity or other Religions and I have no personal experience of how they really work, I'm sure I've gone wrong somewhere, so if you want to challenge my views or add to them then I welcome it :-)

Edit: I also cannot even begin comphrehend the Pope's view on women and contreception. Women and Men are equal and should have the same oppurtunities, END OF. The story of Adam and Eve creates a bad image of women, and I believe that is why they have been treated so badly in history, because of a bible story. There maybe other factors of course, but the role of women is one of the many things I do not agree with the catholic church. As well as contreception and the spread of Aids in Africa - the creation of even more suffering. And of course, the irrational animosity agaisn't homosexuals. Let people live how they want! The only thing I perhaps agree on is Abortion, although there will always be exceptional circumstances such as rape.

Thanks
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Re: The Pope's Visit

Postby Steph » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:52 pm

In my opinion, of course it was right for him to be allowed to visit the UK-at the end of the day, he's not a criminal and, to me, the only thing that should bar entry to this country is a criminal record, depending on how serious etc. Everybody should have freedom to move between countries to give their opinions, no matter what we may think of them. As to the Catholic Church's teachings, there are a lot of things I don't agree with but I support people's rights to their beliefs. However, it should be remembered that not all Catholics believe in the same things even though they read the same Bible. My boyfriend is an admittedly lapsed Catholic although he still does attend church services on the occasional Sunday. He uses his religious background to explain why he disapproves of homosexuals yet a lot of the other things considered as the foundation to Catholicism he doesn't practice, such as the whole contraception issue. However he does have a love hate relationship with his religion primarily due to the fact that he wanted to be a priest in his home country but was turned down on the grounds that his parents had been unmarried when he was born. I am not religious but I will say this-I think, admittedly from an outsiders point of view, that the Catholic Church's stance on contraception is understandable when you consider their views on sex as being only within the context of marriage. If you are married to someone, trying for children is the next logical step for most people. Unfortunately, the world in general is no longer like that, particularly in this country-most people I know of my age (23) have had at least 5 sexual partners-in these circumstances, contraception is vital solely to prevent the spread of STIs. In the context of a long term, stable relationship or a marriage, I believe it is the individuals choice as to whether they feel condoms should be worn or not. As for the abortion thing, it's difficult because I am anti abortion but I am not anti the morning after pill although I feel it should only be used as an emergency contraceptive rather than regularly, even though a lot of people also think of the morning after pill as an abortive process. To some, that might make me a hypocrite but I have my own views on the world and I don't think they have made me a bad person. I do think that this country, as a whole, is damaged in a moral sense and that may make me seem very old fashioned and judgmental but it's what I believe. Christianity has its good points and its not so good points but it's peoples choice what they believe, not mine to make for them. Whoah-that was a long post! I hope it didn't offend anybody.
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Re: The Pope's Visit

Postby Maximus » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:35 am

Absoulutely not. The Catholic Church is rightly under investigation for covering up sexual abuse and as the head of this organisation, the Pope is accountable.
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Re: The Pope's Visit

Postby Maximus » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:36 am

The Pope should never have been allowed in the UK and it was a terrible erroe of judgement on David Cameron's part not to sign the pettiion calling for his arrest.
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Re: The Pope's Visit

Postby Brian » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:47 pm

Maximus, I would like to point that there is a large number of Catholic posters on this forum and that comments disrespecting the Catholic religion will not be respected here and will probably lead to tension. It has happened in a previous thread in the Debate forum.

I don't practise Catholicism anymore. However if you continue your extremist comments about Catholicism, I will have no choice but defend my religion and if that means offending you, then I will do it no bother.
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Re: The Pope's Visit

Postby Maximus » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:57 pm

Brian

I have no extremist opinions on Catholicism, frankly I couldn't care less about it, however I despise sexual abuse and peadophiles more than anything and I'm sorry to say this but the Pope is responsible for his employees, if your offended then there's nothing I can do about that, I'm entitled to have an opnion too believe it or not.
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Re: The Pope's Visit

Postby Brian » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:07 pm

Maximus wrote:Absoulutely not. The Catholic Church is rightly under investigation for covering up sexual abuse and as the head of this organisation, the Pope is accountable.


Maximus wrote:The Pope should never have been allowed in the UK and it was a terrible erroe of judgement on David Cameron's part not to sign the pettiion calling for his arrest.


They are extremist views. The pope should be arrested because he is responsible for paedophilia in the Catholic church. Eh hello, you live in a country where Protestantism is the main religion. Do you realise that people responsible for paedophilia have been through the courts? Bet you didn't know that. If a person working in a company decides to do something illegal on the job, do you think the boss will be arrested & charged and the person who did the illegal action/s will not be arrested and charged? Cop on moron.

I can use better examples of religious abuse against Catholics, if you want me to.
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Re: The Pope's Visit

Postby Maximus » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:10 pm

Brian wrote:
Maximus wrote:Absoulutely not. The Catholic Church is rightly under investigation for covering up sexual abuse and as the head of this organisation, the Pope is accountable.


Maximus wrote:The Pope should never have been allowed in the UK and it was a terrible erroe of judgement on David Cameron's part not to sign the pettiion calling for his arrest.


They are extremist views. The pope should be arrested because he is responsible for paedophilia in the Catholic church. Eh hello, you live in a country where Protestantism is the main religion. Do you realise that people responsible for paedophilia have been through the courts? Bet you didn't know that. If a person working in a company decides to do something illegal on the job, do you think the boss will be arrested & charged and the person who did the illegal action/s will not be arrested and charged? Cop on moron.

I can use better examples of religious abuse against Catholics, if you want me to.




No they are not extremist views, as I have said before I couldn't care less Catholics, and anyway why so angry? If, which has been suggested, that there was an attempted cover up by the Catholic Church then as the head of it the Pope is surely accountable, just like the head of BP was supposedly accountable for the Gulf of Mexico drama. I'm just saying with this happening so recently it was incorrect for the Pope to visit the UK, this is not abuse so chill out.
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Re: The Pope's Visit

Postby Alice » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:20 pm

Maximus, I hope very much that you are never in a position where you are considered responsible for another person. It seems, from your line of reasoning, that you would feel wholely responsible for their decisions. Two peoples worth of guilt seems like a lot to carry.
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Re: The Pope's Visit

Postby babooshka2002 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:12 am

Absolutely he should have been allowed into the UK! There's no reason why his transport between countries should be restricted, he hasn't been convicted of anything, at least not yet.

However.

He should NOT have been visiting this country as a head of state, a State Visit, with the full red carpet out and the British people paying for a large proportion of it. As in MILLIONS. That? Was revolting. We are a multi-faith country and we should not all have been paying for the head of one religion to come over here and be given the 5-star treatment on a state visit. If the Catholics wanted him over here on a visit then the Catholc Church should have paid for it.
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Re: The Pope's Visit

Postby babooshka2002 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:29 am

Brian wrote:
Maximus wrote:Absoulutely not. The Catholic Church is rightly under investigation for covering up sexual abuse and as the head of this organisation, the Pope is accountable.


Maximus wrote:The Pope should never have been allowed in the UK and it was a terrible erroe of judgement on David Cameron's part not to sign the pettiion calling for his arrest.


They are extremist views. The pope should be arrested because he is responsible for paedophilia in the Catholic church. Eh hello, you live in a country where Protestantism is the main religion. Do you realise that people responsible for paedophilia have been through the courts? Bet you didn't know that. If a person working in a company decides to do something illegal on the job, do you think the boss will be arrested & charged and the person who did the illegal action/s will not be arrested and charged? Cop on moron.

I can use better examples of religious abuse against Catholics, if you want me to.


Brian. You're comparing apples and oranges here - you're not comparing the same thing. Let's do a proper comparison here. There are some teachers, in the UK, who have been convicted of child sexual abuse and as you say, they have gone through the courts. So we're agreeing so far. So we have a teacher, who is an abuser. He has been abusing children for 20 years. Now let's imagine that the local education authority knew about the abuse after 5 years. Some people complained and the teacher confessed that yes, he was. At this point, if the local education authority had turned this teacher over the police, they would be innocent of wrongdoing. It wasn't their fault, how could they have known?

Let's say that the local education authority did not turn this teacher over to the police. Instead, they moved him to a different school. When complaints also occurred at that school, they moved him again. For 15 years they moved this man, to more schools where he could continue to abuse children, to damage them so severely that some will never recover. They also paid off the complainers to try and keep them quiet. At this point, this local education authority were complicit in child abuse. They were an accessory to child abuse. And it wasn't just this teacher either, they did it with many of their teachers.

Whoever it was at the education authority who made these decisions to move these teachers on instead of nipping their abuses in the bud and ensuring they could never happen again - that person would be charged with a crime in this country, I am sure of it.

So yeah, if someone does something illegal on the job and the boss knows about it, and they cover it up and move them on where it can continue happening? They would be arressted and charged, when it is something so serious as child abuse.

This is what people within the Catholic Church did, Brian. Including the Pope.

You can apply this to any similar situations. If a Protestant minister had been abusing kids for years and the higher-ups in the Protestant chain of command had moved him on instead of dealing with it by reporting him - they would be guilty of a crime. If a company which provided carers for old people continued to provide carers that they knew were abusing the elderly people they were supposed to be caring for? That company would be guilty of a crime.

This is not an anti-Catholic or anti-religious thing. Anybody who has done what people within the Catholic Church have done would be guilty of a crime and should be punished.
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Re: The Pope's Visit

Postby Brian » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:44 am

Jeez, haven't been on this forum in a good few while and come back to seeing this. Oh well, life does suck sometimes.

First off, When has there been a case of sexual abuse from the Catholic church in the UK, there is probably a few but not as many as Ireland, America and Canada. Think Italy had a few aswell but unsure.

Secondly, what is the most prominent religion in the UK: Protestantism. The Catholic church isn't as prominent in the UK compared to France, Spain, Ireland, Austria and Poland. I don't why yous are making a big deal of it because none of the acts were committed on your soil and yes, they were disgusting but you have no reason to deny the pope access to the UK.
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Re: The Pope's Visit

Postby Alice » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:23 am

babooshka2002 wrote:He should NOT have been visiting this country as a head of state, a State Visit, with the full red carpet out and the British people paying for a large proportion of it. As in MILLIONS. That? Was revolting. We are a multi-faith country and we should not all have been paying for the head of one religion to come over here and be given the 5-star treatment on a state visit. If the Catholics wanted him over here on a visit then the Catholc Church should have paid for it.


But the vatican IS a state. He is internationaly recognised as the head of state of a legitimate country, which has existed for a very very long time.
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