The teddy bear case

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Postby intowiz » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:36 am

i was raised to see everyone as human beings each with there own sence of self so when one person of what people call race says something that many find wrong it upsets me when teh rest of that race our hated against. i have friends who are racists who i often have a go at for saying things like, terrorism is caused by ALL muslims and knife crime is caused by ALL black people. this idea that people should be labeled and discriminated against for there colour is completely racist and those who say im not being racist im being a relist need to open tehre eyes to humanity.
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Postby mattie » Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:15 am

The extremists' did not decide that Britain should be a multicultural society.


Maybe not, but some do want to change British society and the British culture. You cannot deny that.



You make it sound as though people who hold extreme views in Britain (who are often British themselves) are somehow representative of the people in Sudan.


Nope. There is a major problem with anti-western sentiment in the Middle East. That is an indisputable fact. Now, most of the extremists in the UK got their views from terrorist training camps in Middle-Eastern and Muslim countries, which are often a safe haven for terrorism and anti-western views. That's not to say that the majority of people in the Middle-East are terrorists or anti-Western, but it is a major, major problem in many areas and amongst many local populations. This is made considerably worse by their corrupt governments (such as in Sudan) who are quite prepared to see their own people fight amongst themselves or starve to death. Sadly, many Sudanese people are extremely poor and uneducated, so they are easy prey for religious extremists who want to create trouble.



The world does not consist of Britain and the Muslims or of Britain and the Middle East, no matter what the Daily Mail and newspapers like it might make out.


I never believe what I read anyway. I always think for myself, and that often means disregarding a lot of what the Daily Mail says.

The fact that people such as Egyptian-born Abu Hamza had the right to preach extremist sermons in London for years has no bearing on what goes on in the Sudan. We can't make such extrapolations.


I didn't claim it did. It just symbolises what is a much wider problem that extends far beyond British borders. Virtually all the terrorism and anti-western views do originate from the Middle-east (and other Muslim countries), and unfortunately, some rather impressionable British Muslims travel to these distant places and become indoctrinated by such cruel and bitter ideologies.

The problem is that a minority of Muslims who secretly harbour prejudices against the West, and see it as a threat, are not prepared to treat cases like the teddy bear one with common sense or tolerance. To them, these are alien concepts which are considered not only dangerous but also harmful. Instead, they want to spread hatred, intolerance and violence. Whether you think this is as a result of their cultural backgrounds, poverty, or distorted religious dogma - the point remains that we need to be uncompromising and attempt to stamp out such behaviour which does, after all, contravene human rights, not to mention any notion of human decency.


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Postby mattie » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:58 pm

I have read so many anti-Islamic comments on the various opinion-based news websites, which I find rather sad. Don't people realise that such people are only part of a small minority?

I used to be friends with a Muslim at my last uni and he was really nice. Most Middle-Eastern, African and British Muslims want the same as everyone else - to live in peace and be able to live their lives according to their values. It annoys me when people are so ignorant that they don't see this.


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Postby Qasim » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:15 pm

Mattie, in my eyes the views you express are quite simple-minded. Even though you mean well. If people, Muslim's or not want to change Britain it is not their duty to stop, it is your duty to fight against what they want. It is not layed down in our laws that just because we are a multicultural state you have to kow-tow to all their demands. Just know that if you don't, then nothing will change for you. I hear so many complaints about new laws being made here hat take away our freedoms, but no movements to stop them. They just sit quiet in their homes, hoping for the best. I am also a victim of this analogy.

i would say i think its fine for them to spout that stuff it shows what a free society we live in. BUT...... then i look further and people who are mearly silently protesting something are dragged away by the swine puppets because the goverment said they didnt agree. i find it to be very hypocritical.


I agree. Sudan is not Britain. Vicky's comment about the logical meaning of a teddy being called Muhammad over there was just swept aside as if it wasn't an answer, but it is. The fact that they hold such respect for the Prophet is admirable in my eyes.
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Postby mattie » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:24 pm

I agree. Sudan is not Britain. Vicky's comment about the logical meaning of a teddy being called Muhammad over there was just swept aside as if it wasn't an answer, but it is. The fact that they hold such respect for the Prophet is admirable in my eyes.


I didn't ignore Vicky's point actually - I just happened to disagree with it. This case was nothing more than a political move by the Sudanese government. It is rumoured that the banners protestors held in Sudan, and, the whole demonstration generally, was almost certainly pre-planned.

The Sudanese authorities have a history of corruption. They have been responsible for the loss of many Sudanese lives. Even the British and Western aid workers have had rather nasty (and strange!) rumours spread about them in the Sudanese press.

Even withstanding the cultural differences and alleged political games in Sudan, surely wanting to kill another human being or subject them to physical torture is more than extreme for anyone with any ounce of decency. To want to kill or severely punish someone on the basis of an innocent misunderstanding reflects rather badly on the authorities and people concerned.

Besides which, I always thought religion was meant to promote love for fellow human beings. This was not the act of people following a religion - they wanted blood and suffering. Isn't this against everything all religions stand for, regardless of their own unique beliefs?

Also, Vicky's argument was, to my mind, irrelevant because if a non-Christian offended me with blasphemy, I would not want them to be whipped or executed (or beheaded, as many of the protestors wanted), despite the fact that I follow the Christian faith with as much fervour as anyone anywhere!


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Postby Alice » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:17 pm

Someone should be punesed naming a bear Muhammad because it's an insult to liken him to the bear, = wouldn't that mean you'd have to punish parents who named their children Muhammed and the child happened to grow up less than perfect because that would be likening Muhammed to a bad child?
I mean, that would be silly, but it's the same logic, so doesn't that make the bear issue silly?
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Postby Thirteen-thirty-seven » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:37 pm

What I don't understand (and I mean I genuinely don't understand it, I'm not making a sarcastic comment here) is why the child in question didn't realise it was offensive to say that.

I suppose he is very young.
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Postby Qasim » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:00 pm

Someone should be punesed naming a bear Muhammad because it's an insult to liken him to the bear, = wouldn't that mean you'd have to punish parents who named their children Muhammed and the child happened to grow up less than perfect because that would be likening Muhammed to a bad child?
I mean, that would be silly, but it's the same logic, so doesn't that make the bear issue silly?


There's a difference between a teddy and a child. If a parent calls their child Muhammad (coincidentally, Muhammad is my middle name :wink: ) it's seen as respectful. They won't grow up to be as great as him (who would be bold enough to suggest that about themselves anyway?) but they can try and emulate his attitude, behaviour and deeds. A teddy can do none of those.

You know, I just realised. I called a teddy of mine Muhammad when I was young. My parents knew and had no problem with it. I can't believe I just remembered that.

Somewhat related... on BBC news last night I saw a report on how some Christians took the BBc to court for airing a play depicting Jesus in a bad way. The play had been going on for two years prior to this, but suddenly because it's on TV they have a problem with it. Anyway, they lost the case because the aim of the show was not religion but based on the Jerry Springer show. One of the guy's they interviewed said something I found quite amusing, can't remember the exact words but he said that no-one would dare make fun of Muslim's or Muhammad in a show because they are scared of them. I think it's sad that in historically Christian land, with a majority of Christians there is such lack of respect for a Prophet of God.

Off the point, but what a lot of people don't know is that unlike most religions, Islam believes in the existence of Prophets (peace be upon them all) of other religions. We believe in Jesus and Moses for example, but other religions do not believe in Muhammad. I have never understood why if the Torah foretold of a Prophet coming after Jesus, why Jews do not become Muslim.

Not to turn the subject around though. Let me state that as a Muslim I do not condone the behaviour of people wanting someone's head for something as stupid as this.
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Postby intowiz » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:46 pm

jerry springer the opera isnt a sign of disrespect
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Postby Qasim » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:24 pm

I forgot to mention, my Dad just came back from Sudan yesterday. He works for an aid organisation.
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